When do you know if your child is bright enough to get into a selective/very selective school?

[user1471592953]

Tried posting this in Primary, but didn’t get any responses.

When do you know if your child is bright enough to get into a selective school? I realise there are different thresholds for selection.

I’m asking because I have a DC in Reception who is reading okay, picking up numbers and counting okay and is writing okay. DC seems bright enough at learning but is equally interested in playing at this stage. DC is 4 and early Summer born.

There is nothing I can identify e.g. reading fluently or advanced in maths to show that DC may be bright enough to get into a selective school at, say, prep age. Does that mean DC isn’t, or true ability isn’t revealed yet?

We had hoped to send DC to an independent school for secondary but are thinking about a prep beforehand. But it is difficult to tell which prep to aim for at this stage due to lack of certainty about DC’s ability.

Hope this post makes sense and would be interested to hear thoughts/advice.

Thanks.

I actually think to actually get into a super selective it is more important to have an intelligent child who has the willingness to work with you and learn at home and cope with tutoring etc than show signs of being extremely able but not willing to work.

Thanks very much everyone for all the thoughts you’ve given - very interesting views.

Cohort is everything....
I was 'average' at my selective indie. I started school a year early so rather short compared to most others for most years. It was only when I got to university I realised my 'average' was not everyone else's average. So the top girl in my year at school went onto Cambridge, a fellow of Havard and started some kind of investment / tech firm. Others went onto Oxford, Cambridge to do engineering, law etc. I was in the middle. The bottom of the year went on predominantly to be secondary school teachers. I thought this was all normal til uni and I discovered I was one of the top 2 students on my course out of 75..
A friend of mine went to a very small, rural school and was top of everything - got to university and found it was full of other geniuses!

In our experience, the very very clever DC are obvious from early on and stay that way, but there are also plenty of DC that blossom in Junior school and get into the selective schools too. The difference is they may have to work a bit harder to compete for a spot while the ones that were clever and quick to learn from the get-go are more likely to sail through in the top 5%.

Thanks.

@blowonitthen - would you say the ‘very clever’ element show themselves through the early reading, good at maths, etc., points?

I’m just wondering whether a scholarship-worthy pupil might have started life as a later reader!

I'm sure there will be cases of children having leaps in development later in infants and juniors and going on to gain scholarships. I wouldn't want to say that can't happen, of course.
On the whole though, the ones at the very top of the cohort of these schools are likely to have at least shown 'sparks' of being able early on in maths or English, or both. Not necessarily early reading, but quick development once they pick it up. Especially if we are talking about super-selectives that attract the brightest applicants.

If your child is only in reception I would wait until year 2 and think about this again. If they are top of the class in maths, spelling, reading etc then yes. If not then probably no. It is 90% likely to be obvious by year 2 and also how motivated they are. Motivation is also an issue.

@Chewbecca

My personal experience is that about 80% of the children on the 'top table' at infants ended up at the grammar school.

A couple of kids on the top table didn't make it, and a couple who were middling did.

So the infant teachers could probably predict with about 80% accuracy.

totally endorse this.

My 3 are all at super selective grammars.

All three were pretty much on the 'top table' all through primary. The other kids on the top table all did well through school and secondary.

BUT the eldest was a really late reader. He was good at maths and as the teacher said - he is very articulate and knows all sorts of interesting facts (teacher code for he never bloody stops talking) but he wasn't reading properly until year 3 when he suddenly took off and his reading caught up .

One or two dark horses who blossomed later, and one or two who were early readers and then everyone else caught up.

But yes, also agree that look at the cohort! In some schools, almost half the class would be 'top table'

DS was bright in his primary school - top table for everything, the kid they got to show the mayor round, the one who could read aloud in the church services. It was an area of deprivation though. We still have the 11+ in our area and I thought he might pass (he didn't.) No one in the school did or the year after him. So just being top of the cohort doesn't always count for much. Obviously it makes no odds now. He did well at gsces, joined the selective school for 6th form and went to a (well prized on mumsnet!) Russel group uni. All good.

It all depends on the actual schools. The super selective Grammars in London are extremely difficult to get into as the test is knowledge and technique based and speed is of the utmost importance. There are thousands of applicants for around 150+ places in each school. All the kids are 'top table' and I say often on here, that's not enough without the right preparation (although you'll get the odd outlier who hasn't been tutored but often they're at a good prep or parents support well etc). In most areas of the country it's a self selecting cohort that sit these exams.

For the top independents and scholarships, they're looking for a more rounded child. They usually shine in something (academic, musical, spots or whatever). There's more leeway. If your school do CATS then you're looking at 135+ scores in most areas from year 4/5. These scores are meant to be innate but in my experience can be bumped up with tutoring.

Before that, it's difficult to say as bright kids might be top table but unmotivated and there are some bright kids who are very hard workers and will put the hours of prep etc in. All you can do is to sit him for the preps and see how he does - look for one that supports a move at 11+ if you're interested in Grammar.

MrsPatmore our son had a CATS test in year 3 and it says expected score is 100 and high score is 110. Does this mean that 120 would not be 'excellent'. You need 135+? The scale on his test result only goes up to 120?

To be honest there’s a huge difference in how selective grammars are too. County wide ones less selective I think. The top performing DC at these grammars will be very bright and would have got into a super selective. At the lower end, DC can be over tutored and not do as well as DC at the top of the secondary moderns or all ability (?) as they are now called.

The position in London/Devon/Essex is wholly different from many other areas. Super selective grammars are a different thing!

I have seen enough hopeful parents whose dc don’t get to grammar be perfectly satisfied with the secondary moderns in the end. Others force DC through more exams in y8 and again in y9. Ive seen the fall out from that in my tiny village too. Wanting something so much children are ill through stress. It’s awful to see. 6th forms do have new entrants in the grammar schools here.

If it’s a less competitive grammar, you can spot the top DC who are nailed on but others are more difficult to spot. Our school had lots of very similar achieving DC. Money for coaching helps some of course. Plus family background and support for education.

I had no idea at primary my DD would be good at languages. Sometimes DC do surprise you. And probably their primary teachers.

Oh: and no teacher here gives advice on whether dc is likely to get to any school. Nor are they compared to others. You just get info on your child and make your mind up. Tables are not necessarily “top” tables that don’t change either. If 12/30 can get the 11 plus, who is the top table?

If I’m being totally honest... when he passed the test!

Both of my kids have academic scholarships (not something I share with friends).

The older one was a late reader but made good academic progress from about year 6 upwards. He is organised and very conscientious. He was thrilled with his GCSE results as he worked hard for them.

The younger one was a early reader but is not an avid reader (sadly). He was good at creative writing and maths from about year 2 (his y2 teacher occasionally gave him a foundation GCSE maths paper for a bit of fun). He can be embarrassingly confident (he "corrected" mistakes in his French and Maths exam papers at prep school, which I found mortifying).

The younger one has a tendency to cruise, is not as conscientious as his brother unless there's glory to be had, in which case he'll produce an excellent piece of work then go back to cruising along. He also does everything at breakneck speed and I think will come unstuck, as with the tortoise and the hare...

I should add that a lot depends on the level of preparation at the school, even between private prep schools.

My older one was guided to apply for a less selective secondary school at his first prep school as only a couple of kids got into the school we particularly liked. We ended up moving him to a prep school from which 75% of the pupils went on to the more selective school. It's highly unlikely he'd have been given a scholarship, or even a place, had he stayed at his first prep school.

We decided that, if he didn't get into the selective school from the second prep school, it wasn't the right school for him but at least he had the opportunity to give it a shot. Though it's hard moving schools as both children loved their first school.

abc31 can I ask what age you moved your children between preps? We are about to do the same (yr 3 and yr6) and for the same reason. Any 'issues'. The first prep was fab and extra curricular is 5* but academically it seems to have rapidly gone down hill in the last 2 years so we are jumping ship to somewhere that we think they will be more challenged and will be a better 'fit'.

The older one moved at year 5 and the younger one at year 3. To be honest, it was a much bigger deal to me than to them in the end! It was a tough decision at the time but I felt that I would have had to supplement their preparation for the 13 plus. Which felt wrong when we were paying a lot in fees.

In the end, we decided that we'd have no regrets if we moved them and they didn't get into the first choice school as they'd had plenty of support from the teachers. We would have had that nagging doubt if they'd stayed at their first school.

The other things I learnt was the benefit of "starting again" for some kids. My eldest never quite shook off being the slightly dreamy, gambolling two year old at his first school (which he was!) so his confidence had a boost at his new school. My younger one had a more academic set of peers which was a good challenge for him too.

The other thing I didn't perhaps appreciate was that it's not just a case of passing the entrance exams but the foundation for secondary school. I know some of his old school friends have found year 9 work more of a step up than others.

There is a tutoring place near me where you can pay for an assessment. This will show how likely there are to get through 11+

Thanks everyone - lots more interesting points to consider. Glad I asked.

It’s too soon to know or ask.
At the end of KS1 they will probably do SATs and if he has Greater Depth in all areas, that’s a good sign...so at 7.

Once in Juniors I’d say you can ask if you want to and at some point you really do need a steer. If you approach it right and make clear you’re not lookimg for certainty as you know there is no certainty, and that you’re just asking for their professional opinion about if he’s in the right ballpark to even consider it and that you’d be grateful for any thoughts, I think you would get an answer and can expect one. It might be worth asking the Head direct. You can acknowledge that you know the school isn’t a big supporter of it if you want to. If you approach it with a bit of humility and without critisicng other schools, I think schools will have to answer. But you must wait until KS2 (perhaps yr4) or it’s a bit daft, and really you can’t keep asking.

I agree that being top table doesn’t tell you much without context. Top table/group in a large 6 form junior school in a leafy area.....probably means pretty bright. Top table in an area of severe deprivation might not mean so much.

And again, as you say Op, selectivity varies a lot. In Bucks I think top 30% go to Grammar which is a fully selective county, so no Comps. For a super selective grammar you will be looking at 10-15 applications per place and only the clever apply in the first place.....totally different scenario.

The ratios of applicants to places offered is much more favourable in independent schools, even the top ones, because the fees alone reduce the applications. Even the very top ones need to make significantly more offers than places because many kids apply for 4 or 5 schools and can only accept 1 place. Very frequently, kids get offers for the really top independents but don’t get the super selective state grammar. Some people equate an academic scholarship to one of those really top 10 or 20 independents as being the equivalent to a super selective state school place....obviously this doesn’t apply to everyone and sometimes a child will get the super selective state place and not the independent place.

Keep nurturing your child and especially their reading....it’s never wasted. They might turn out to be reasonably bright rather than super bright...who knows.

When your 5yr old and their friend make up a game called "Pandora's Box", including a Mount Olympus, and Zeus. . They are now at Oxford and Cambridge studying Science and Engineering. (Well, DS is starting in Sept cos he took a gap year. )
In reception Ds was the winner of Star of the Week an embarrassing number of times, and his work was regularly chosen for displays. He was just always asking questions, and remembering things. Memory is key I think.

He used to say in yrs R-3, he usually finished his work before the others,
and have to do colouring in. He grew to hate colouring in. We moved him to a different school in y4.
He loved his new school as he was suddenly among others like himself, and was being challenged and kept busy. He was no longer top of the class, but 'near' the top instead.

Good luck OP. Keep reading to him/her, and let them experience as much as possible. And keep talking and discussing stuff with them too.

abc31 I feel exactly the same - I am sweating about moving them and they seem to be excited about it! As you say a clean slate, I'm also annoyed I've having to tutor them myself in the evenings as the school is not challenging them enough.