Untutored 11+

[petrificus]

Tutoring seems to be the norm here in London, and on the MN threads - I was wondering if anyone has tackled the London independents/grammar 11+ successfully without any tutoring?

I've taken the extremely risky decision not to tutor. I have plenty of free time to spend with Y5 DC (WFH, totally free weekends and evenings!) and I used to tutor for the 11+ in my uni days (of course, things were not even remotely competitive in those days). The prep school seems to give a lot of Atom/written test practice. So I have some idea what to expect, but not sure if that's enough.

I have Atom, 11+ books and mock papers. Is that enough? What advice would you give me to tackle an untutored path? What could be some of the dangers? Would love to hear from those who have not tutored!

We haven’t had tutoring and have had an Indy offer and a second round interview, plus second round of grammar. We didn’t do Atom either as our schools weren’t ISEB but we have done VR and NVR, maths and English through books from smiths!

Totally doable - you are basically tutoring but not paying for it!
Most tutors plough through past papers that they have got off the internet anyway.
Both DCs had tutors but having seen what older Dc did I could have done the same for DC2. However I know neither DC would have listened to me so was easier to pay for it!

Thanks both, that's very reassuring.

@Corblimbea Did your DC find the process okay? Did you do any extra work for the interviews?

@anotherdayanothertier, that's what I assumed as well! Everyone I know tells me it's not the same and there's some kind of blind spot that parents have. Anyway, DC seems to like my teaching so far, but not sure how long it will last!

Absolutely doable if you have time and endless patience (or a really studious child 😁). No secret to it - just do past papers and Bond books etc.

So, you mean you're not outsourcing tutoring but are going to do it yourself? A totally different thing to not tutoring. Yes, it's fine not to. Just need to do practice papers so they know what to expect.

Something that I hadn't realised until dd did the 11plus - Is that it is totally different in every single different area of the uk. So, it's essentially a competition against all the other children in the area who are competing for the same school. So, if in your area there's 1900000 children competing for 157 spots, your child has to get a much higher pass to 'pass the 11plus' than a child who has 200 competitors for 157 spots. So, a child in one area of the country might get 50% and pass the 11+, but a child in another area might get 95% and not pass. So, don't listen to other parents in different areas saying my child passed without a tutor, as it means nothing. Lots of so's.

@arethereanyleftatall

So, you mean you're not outsourcing tutoring but are going to do it yourself? A totally different thing to not tutoring. Yes, it's fine not to. Just need to do practice papers so they know what to expect.

I bought a £10 practice papers book and gave it to DS. Left him to it. I wouldn't consider that tutoring.

We are in a different part of the country but DS got into a grammar with no catchment area without tutoring, just one book done over a few weeks two months before the test.

Yes, but @kowari I wasn't talking about what you did, I was referring to the op.

Also, you've proved the point I was trying to make to the op. In some areas it's absolutely fine to do nothing, as a third of the dc get in, so being on the top few tables in primary is sufficient - some grammars in Kent for example. In other areas - there is NO WAY a child would get in doing what your ds did. No way. I'm suggesting to op she works out which type of area she's in.

If you’re at a prep that’s tutoring enough

You are well equipped, you have the tutoring skills and time. What else do you need to know. Enjoy the experience as a family this brought us closer together.

@arethereanyleftatall That’s exactly my worry too. We are applying to highly selective schools In London. Let’s say the worst case is 10 applicants for a place. What are tutors doing for these schools that I won’t be able to replicate?

Probably nothing op. Maybe confidence?

Although you know your own child. Maybe you'll be better. I'd make a start, see how you go, but maybe do a few practice tests with others along the way to see how he's matching up?

@arethereanyleftatall

Something that I hadn't realised until dd did the 11plus - Is that it is totally different in every single different area of the uk. So, it's essentially a competition against all the other children in the area who are competing for the same school. So, if in your area there's 1900000 children competing for 157 spots, your child has to get a much higher pass to 'pass the 11plus' than a child who has 200 competitors for 157 spots. So, a child in one area of the country might get 50% and pass the 11+, but a child in another area might get 95% and not pass. So, don't listen to other parents in different areas saying my child passed without a tutor, as it means nothing. Lots of so's.

I don't think this is correct. Which grammar has a 50% pass mark?

I am in an area where 800 sat for 150 places. OOC, needed a mark of above 90% to gain entry.
How it works is if 120 in catchment children get the pass mark or more, those places are filled. The 30 places left go to the OOC children, working top down.
If say only 110 in catchment get the pass mark, the remaining 40 places would go to OOC children, again working top down.

They don't lower the pass mark to get a full year group

And to answer the OP's question.
We virtually did untutored. We worked the 6 weeks at the end of yr5 to prepare, whereas it appears other children start tutoring at the start of yr5.
She managed to bag an OOC place, so was very lucky.
VR is apparently the stumbling block because you either get it, or don't. It said very difficult to teach somebody VR.

Ah, that's interesting @NiceTwin
So it's only the out of catchment children who are in a competition?
Note my numbers were just made up to illustrate my point.

@arethereanyleftatall

Ah, that's interesting *@NiceTwin* So it's only the out of catchment children who are in a competition? Note my numbers were just made up to illustrate my point.

Out of catchment places are more difficult to secure but of course those in catchment still have to reach the pass mark,so it's not a walk in the park for anybody.

In other areas - there is NO WAY a child would get in doing what your ds did. No way. I'm suggesting to op she works out which type of area she's in.
Out of interest, how do you work it out? I've heard people say that ours are difficult to get into as there is no catchment (Gloucestershire).

@NiceTwin the pass mark on the Kent Test is usually only around 50-60% raw score. But the cut off for the super-selective grammars will be much higher than that, and some of the non-super-selective grammars have v small geographical catchments. But there are still some less 'sought after' grammars that are relatively manageable to get into without tutoring if you have a naturally bright child and can support at home.

@kowari

In other areas - there is NO WAY a child would get in doing what your ds did. No way. I'm suggesting to op she works out which type of area she's in. Out of interest, how do you work it out? I've heard people say that ours are difficult to get into as there is no catchment (Gloucestershire).

I'm not sure, but I guess nicetwin has detailed how if you're ooc you could need a higher score than in catchment.

I wouldn't say not employing a tutor is a particular risky strategy as long as you are prepared to do the research into the exact requirements (and exam board) for the schools you are targeting. Go through the syllabus/ curriculum methodically and check what has/ hasn't been covered by your DC and how confident they are in each area and go from there.

You are at a prep, so presumably a decent chunk of it is covered anyway, and you'll just be filling in any gaps/ providing extra practice. And presumably they'll do some interview practice as well, which is where we definitely dropped the ball.

What worked for us was little and often - so the 10 minute type tests really worked for us until the run up to the exam. Format will make a massive difference as well - fortunately we hadn't really got going on written past papers when our schools moved to ISEB, which required a completely different mindset (and a month of Atom which was useful for technique).

We're in Kent and tutored both children ourselves with the help of books/past papers. They both ended up with very good super selective scores, which we needed due to location.

One thing I will say is that a teacher friend pointed out that many children wouldn't work as well for a parent as they would for a tutor. She said tutoring her own child was the hardest job she'd had!

You don't call your home dirty just because you cleaned it yourself rather than paying someone to do it, do you?

Paying for a tutor or not - the question is if the child has prepared for the 11+ or not. If your DC is at a prep school, there should have been a lot of prep for years which is totally different to state primaries. So lots of work - paid or not paid for - shouldn't be needed. Your planned approach seems more than enough.

DC was at the local state primary and had a tutor for a year prior to cover topics they hadn't gone through and exam technique. Proper summer hols and never work during any breaks. That was enough to get a place at a London grammar. We used a tutor to enable DC to be independent about the work but mostly to avoid arguments at home...

The grammars where we are, have anything from 11 to 30 applicants per place.

If what you're doing or intending to do @OP, is not tutoring, then I don't know what is.