Untutored 11+

[petrificus]

Tutoring seems to be the norm here in London, and on the MN threads - I was wondering if anyone has tackled the London independents/grammar 11+ successfully without any tutoring?

I've taken the extremely risky decision not to tutor. I have plenty of free time to spend with Y5 DC (WFH, totally free weekends and evenings!) and I used to tutor for the 11+ in my uni days (of course, things were not even remotely competitive in those days). The prep school seems to give a lot of Atom/written test practice. So I have some idea what to expect, but not sure if that's enough.

I have Atom, 11+ books and mock papers. Is that enough? What advice would you give me to tackle an untutored path? What could be some of the dangers? Would love to hear from those who have not tutored!

@peteneras Yes, it is a kind of tutoring, but my concern is whether an external tutor is somehow superior to a parent?

If you’re at a prep that’s tutoring enough
You would think that @Helspopje but every parent at the prep seems to be tutoring as well!

@petrificus You are stuck in the London madness I’m afraid where parents hear someone else is tutoring and then worries that they need to be too and it spirals and becomes this thing and is now the norm. The tutoring pushes up the required pass marks as children work above and beyond the curriculum.

We are in Herts and DD sat the Bucks 11+, and a couple of independents - one of which was one of the very highly sought after north London academic girls schools. She was top sets at her prep school and we only tutored in the way you are proposing at home and focussed on familiarisation of VR and NVR questions and exam technique. English and maths done by the school. She passed the grammar test with flying colours, got into that super selective academic school and an academic scholarship offer from another. Got places at all four schools. Some of her heavily tutored friends didn’t pass the grammar 11+ (but did get places at one of their preferred independent schools).

I think the biggest thing is to be realistic about your child’s abilities. You might want them to go to NLCS or Habs but if they don’t have natural academic ability then all the tutoring in the world probably won’t get them in, regardless of how you chose to do it.

What you are currently doing is called Tutoring and you should definitely continue down that path. I don't think I know anyone that got into an actual Super duper selective grammar or independent school without any form of tutoring be it from their parents, family members or an external tutor.

Don't let the Internet tell it though as most would say their kids got in without any form of tutoring or the lightest form of tutoring known to man. If that was the case, these schools should be producing a plethora of Mini Einstein's, mini Darwin's and Billionaires every single year after all they should stand out amongst the sea of majority well
(in many cases heavily)tutored intelligent kids who got in but alas No.

I differ slightly. I think preparing might be more accurate a description. There are some very sought after “ super tutors” out there whose names are exchanged secretively, so me of whom are former ( or event present ) teachers at the targeted schools. They offer tutoring. Finding out as much as you can about the exam and doing bond books isn’t in the same league. I did the second and DS got into a London super selective, I have to say he got in via the waiting list so it was a close shave. I found the 11 plus forum very helpful. I agree that without professional or parental help there’s virtually no chance of getting in. No matter how bright the kid, if they haven’t been shown how to do verbal and non verbal/ write a newspaper style column/ answer a maths question which will be based on the year 7 syllabus, they have no chance.

You are right @whataboutbob, I met a parent who uses a 'super tutor' and it's not just about doing books or timed tests or mock exams. They give a load of advice on the schools, the interview process, when/how to appeal in case of grammars, what schools are looking for, etc. I think there is more to the preparation than just doing these books - hence my panic worry!

Probably too late for us to get a super tutor though, and am happy with whatever outcome we get. I've also decided to aim a little 'lower' in the choice of schools as we seem so underprepared compared to the majority.

Any tutor worth their salt would have built up a fair amount of experience on each particular test and will have tips and tricks that a parent won't have access to. It's not so much about the practice but the inside info and very specific advice.

If you are going for any of the Sutton grammars let me know and I can give more specific advice. Went through it all 3 years ago.

You are tutoring though. Only difference is you're not paying someone else to do it. Even if you only "tutor" for a few weeks, it's still tutoring. Call a spade a spade!

To answer your question, depending on the child and how well organised you are, yes it's sufficient for the 11+.

@Daniamom27 Thank you for the link. They talk about a little bit of extra support to pass maths, but I am wondering what that extra support means that a parent cannot offer (does it just mean more time spent on a time, better explanation of a concept, or is there something else?). I agree with mock exams not being enough though, I am sadly realising there are a lot of conceptual gaps that need attention!

@Bedknobbroomsticks Yes it is indeed tutoring, but my question was whether the tutoring done by parents is in any way inferior to the tutoring done by external tutors. All my friends seem to be paying for 'super tutors' who charge £100ph upwards, but not sure what they offer beyond what I can do?

Either the London 11+ system is driving me crazy with the fear or missing out, or I am missing something obvious!

I can share my own experience as laidback mum who had DS doing 11+.
You don't have to go completely nuts on 11+ preparations from cradle but if the child has never done 11+ practice papers even a little bit it will put them at quite a disadvantage when facing the exam.

My DS is like top 5% bright, but not like top 0.1% bright or anything jaw-dropping (I don't know his IQ). We never had a tutor for him but I did buy 11+ Bond books for him.

When he was in Y5 my grand plan was to get him to do one/two tests every day (which was 10-20 mins per test) to familiarise him with exam questions and techniques, so he knew what to expect.

But he was quite resistant to doing practice tests, made huge sloppy mistakes and he was quite bad at paying attention to questions. 11+ times are quite tight, so my DS has time management problem too - spending too much time stuck on question and being frustrated with it rather than move on into another question quickly. We spent so much more time arguing with him doing tests than actually doing them in the end. Draining for both of us. Think only grand total of 2 Bond books has been done.

He did pass 11+ but didn't get enough marks for superselectives/top.

His best friend (who is bright but not that MUCH brighter) passes with super high marks/passed superselectives. His mum reported similar struggles with preparations but she credits massively to him doing several Mock exams at centres. She said he had some really awful mock exams and some ok. With 11+ you never know how your child will do on a particular day when completely unprepapred.

Also parent doing tutoring can be too hard work, kids listen to tutors more readily without complaining.

My DS is now in Y7 at his local grammar and is already sailing through, getting good reports. I thought he would be very average in his class because his 11+ marks were not much higher than pass mark. Just shows how many kids got in by being well prepared.

@petrificus some advantages of paying would be:

• child more receptive to being taught by someone else and not a parent
• parents not wanting to tutor for a variety of reasons, including not risking any harm to the parent/child relationship by the stress of teaching
• some tutors can offer familiarity with the school exam process/structure if there are certain schools you have in mind
• professional tutors are good if you are time poor due to working
• tutors can be more impartial to your child's strengths/weaknesses so will be in a better position to identify weak spots and work on those
• if money isn't an issue, it's easier to use a professional tutor
• peace of mind/insurance. If your child doesn't get an offer/offers, you won't wonder whether the outcome would have been different had you paid for a tutor

Hope that's helpful. Good luck!

If it is any help here is my game plan for my daughter, currently in Year 4. She is very bright, good memory, excellent reader and writer but middle set in Math and stresses during tests. Top set in English and has won writing awards and the academic prize last year (whatever that means.) I suppose she is in the top 10-15 of her school.

Hasn’t a clue how to approach NVR stuff. So my approach is to do lots of jigsaw puzzles, shape stuff, geometry type things, logic games over April, as that is really her weak point. In the summer term I will hire a tutor (maybe just a local girl) to come once every two weeks to walk through the approach for VR / NVR stuff and work through some problems. This summer I will work on consolidating her Math so it is really really good and just let her read loads. Then in Year 5 I will have a proper 11 plus tutor ever other week until January, then once a week starting in January Year 5.

I guess we will see how she is doing by then, hopefully she won’t be a broken shell of herself. At some point before she takes the actual test, maybe in the summer, I will put her in a group tutorial thing where she has to take mock tests with other kids in an exam type environment. I hate doing this. I don’t consider myself a pushy parent. But I want to give her every opportunity to do ok on these tests as possible and what will be, will be.

I guess I equate it to a sporting event - I would never send her into a high pressure tennis game without proper coaching, and I wouldn’t leave that coaching to only a few months before the match.

I also don’t want to ruin my relationship with her so if we have to pay for a tutor and go without a few meals out or tighten our budget, so be it. As the above poster said, I would always wonder what might have been if we didn’t do it.

I am hoping that if I take a relaxed attitude to it and present it as, this is just 30 minutes - 1 hr out of your life once a week, then she will see it like that too.

Good luck to all of us!

Start with the eleven plus exams forum. They'll tell you everything you need to know about the exam format for the particular schools you're interested in. Forget about Bond unless it's NVR practise - it rarely matches up to the format/level needed in the exams. The forum will help you with targeted materials.
Also sign up to mock tests - the Sutton one for example (sells out fast) will give you an idea of where your child sits in this self selected cohort.
Always include a spread of schools - they say one aspirational, two bankers (although in London these days nothing is a dead cert!).

Hi OP. It is perfectly possible to gain entry into selective independents in London without tutoring, although there are some caveats. I think you said that your dc is at a prep school? If so, then you already know that the majority of parents will already have specialist tutors on top of the prep given at school! This, to me, is crazy and perpetuates the ridiculous scramble for places that occurs every year!

In my experience (as an ex prep parent) children were tutored to get into the ‘top’ selective schools in the league tables and even to pass the CATs which are done in prep schools to ascertain natural ability! Total madness.

We chose not to tutor our 2 children and they passed exams in 10 selective independent schools between them. I wouldn’t say helping them at home as a parent can be classed as ‘tutoring’ as such... more like home schooling! The professional tutors have a knack of spotting which children will do well in which schools but are also able to teach the brighter kids beyond the Yr 6 curriculum and hence they scoop up the academic scholarships at most schools. These were the kids who were able to answer the tougher maths questions on the back page of the exams!! Tutors definitely are able to offer a few ‘nuggets’ which can aid speed of answering questions. I’m not sure most parents would be able to teach this and hence why I don’t think a parent’s help counts as tutoring, as such.

I do believe that it is important that we place our children in a school which is at the right level for them with regards to reaching academic potential. I have known of many children who were ‘pushed’ academically to get into X school and have struggled along in bottom sets. Confidence has a massive role to play in academic success (as does parental interest and involvement) and this is why we chose a more middle tier independent school despite offers from more ‘academic’ schools. Our dcs are very happy and confident and doing brilliantly academically without all the pressure of a hothouse.

The fact that you are willing to help your child shows that they have a committed and caring parent and hopefully they will do well in any school. As a previous poster mentioned, ensure that you have a good spread of different academic schools just in case and don’t be fooled into thinking that the most academic school is always the best for your child! The 11 plus is a difficult journey for most but I wish you and your child every success in the future.

Thank you for the kind words @Wishingitwasover. You (and other posters) are absolutely correct on not going for the most academic ones. He is a happy, confident, funny kid now and the last thing I want is for him to land in a highly stressful environment. We decided against grammars for this reason as well. Since we are doing the ISEB any way, it’s easy to add a few more schools to the list.

Teaching DS has not been a chore honestly, he responds well and I enjoy teaching him new things. So won’t look for a tutor for now - I just need to learn not to panic.