Church attendance and Covid

[User647647]

Hello,

I was just reading that churches will be allowed a specific number of people during service. I read 30, but I’m guessing it will depend on the size of the actual church.

I was wondering if faith secondary schools will be relaxing their rules about church attendance for Year 7 admissions or what their plan (if any) might be.

Has anyone heard anything?

Thanks!

I bet about 90% of children in our (primary) school didn't attend church regularly before they started school and don't attend until year 4 when they take their first holy communion where it's very very strict, before the summer holidays before they enter year 4 you have to practically beg to do it and tell him why you want to do it and why you haven't attended church regularly if it's so important to you they take it! Then you have a card you get signed every week until your holy communion! Every year there's a parent who doesn't attend church enough and ends up arguing with the president about it before being told they can't do it! Then most children stop attending after they've done it but all get into the high school.

I'm looking to get into a very competitive CofE, I've been stewarding for the last two services so ime:

1. We have a limit of 70 people in the church (only a certain configuration per pew etc). Normal congregation is 3x this than this however as so many elderly attendees/families are now sending only the parent not everyone/summertime is quiet as people on holiday etc it's not an issue and tbh if 80 people come we will be able to find somewhere for them to be In an appropriately distanced way.

1. As we need 2 years' interaction the vicar will know who is a regular and who isn't so covid closure isn't an issue on that front.

I was a bit crap at online services tbh but as have a couple if years to go I wasn't hugely worried.

I'm surprised we haven't started outdoor services though, we have beautiful grounds (grave stones removed) and normally have at least 3 outdoor services per summer so surprised they aren't trying to do it more .

We don't have a register which is super annoying esp as the parish has lost one of its permanent vicars so you don't see the same person every week
However seeing as we have to be volunteering in some way I've at least got my rota all saves! We have to include a piccy of us all on the school admission lol

@user647647 the Government have just issued some guidance to schools about how to go about varying their 2021 admissions policies if they feel they need to: www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-changes-to-faith-school-admission-arrangements

They'll have to be quick though!

@JanewaysBun

We don't have a register which is super annoying esp as the parish has lost one of its permanent vicars so you don't see the same person every week However seeing as we have to be volunteering in some way I've at least got my rota all saves! We have to include a piccy of us all on the school admission lol

Not only "super annoying" but also wide open to challenge. A vicar in my area was threatened with legal action by a parent when he refused to sign an attendance form, so now most local churches have some sort of register.

There was no register when I used to go, but I always filled in the gift aid form on my donation envelope so I knew there would be a paper trail.

You surely aren't suggesting that you intend to pretend to a faith you do not have simply to get your church into a faith school? That would be dishonest and hypocritical, wouldn't it?

@moondust001 you don't have to pretend to have faith, you just have to attend church ... they are two different things. People without faith go to church for all sorts of reasons - comfort, tradition, social life, weddings, funerals ... I don't see why attending to secure a school place is any different. It's the system of giving privileged access to school places for churchgoers that is dishonest, not the churchgoers themselves.

The vicar at my local church used to relish the increase in bums on seats, and said on his website that he welcomed people without faith. He would do his best to persuade people to make longer term commitments but if many had done that he would have needed a much bigger church! In the meantime, the extra donations helped to pay for his new roof.

This is going to be an interesting problem for next year's admissions and it is more or less a certainty that there will be quite a few appeals around the issues from COVID-19 causing people to miss out on attendance requirements at church. Schools / churchs will make up their own version of the admission criteria as already quoted by others but I suspect many will not realise the need to go to the school adjudicator for approval.
The other interesting area is going to be 11+ exams which have to be currently undertaken before the 31st October, giving sufficient time for parents to receive the results of the test and make admission decisions based on this. There has been talk this week about schools needing to postpone the exams by at least a month based on the amount of work missed by year 6 pupils. However they clearly have not recognised the issues around admissions if they do put back the exams.

@admission there has been some gov guidance for selective schools recently published too: www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-assessment-processes-for-selective-school-admissions

Thank you for pointing out that guidance, must have slipped through when I was not looking!
The guidance is not going to be that helpful. If the schools decide to test as normal then they leave themselves wide open for appeals on the basis of this guidance and that their child was not prepared for the tests. If they do leave till later then they also run the risk of numerous appeals on the basis of being forced to make decisions when they did not have all the information or variations on this theme. Parents have nothing to loose in appealing and everything to gain.
I can see there being lots of appeals for grammar school places,even more than usual.
It is also the case that the schools need to get approval from the schools adjudicator or Dfe depending on the status of the school, so they are also going to be busy and if they slow down the decision making process will further exacerbate the potential for appeals. Oh fun and games next year!

I've never heard of church attendance being monitored for high school admissions, or actually primary school

For the item of sheer joy that a faith secondary school's admissions policy can be, try this one:
www.davenantschool.co.uk/attachments/download.asp?file=3888&type=pdf

As mentioned upthread, RC schools now have a much simplified baptised or not? faith distinction (or accepted proof of membership of faiths with different practices). CofE Voluntary Aided schools still seem to tend to more complicated policies, but 'evidence of faith' does have to be certified attendance at services.
e.g. here:
www.stpeterssouthweald.org/wp-content/uploads/ADMISSIONS-POLICY-SEPTEMBER-2020-ENTRY.pdf

The school has applied for a variation. The intention appears to be to disregard from the length of attendance requirement any period when the church was physically closed to public worship and no alternative premises made a available.

Oh boy, marching frogs you have found a gem in terms of the complexity of the admission criteria for St Peters, South Weald.
This admission criteria is pushing the boundary as to whether the admission criteria is correct. Whilst defining "regular" as 18 months of church attendance at least fortnightly is perfectly sensible, I question whether then allocating place order based on the longest attending parents at church is within the spirit of the admission code.
Working your way as a parent around meeting the minimum attendance at church and where you live within the parish of South Weald plus various roads is difficult and must be a nightmare to administer.
Then the school is giving some priority to siblings but you do not need to meet the minimum criteria for parents attending church and also priority to teaching staff without needing to attend church. Also interestingly it only refers to teaching staff, so that excludes all other school staff, which is hardly equitable.
If you live within the area defined by criterion 6, then shortest walking distance is taking into consideration using a large scale ordnance survey map, available for inspection - so that is based on just a big map?
Strangely then if you do not meet the area defined by criteria 6 then distances is again measured but this is straight line distance measured using the Essex LA computer system , which is going to much more accurate than measured off a printed map as in the previous criteria.
Best of luck to parents and admission appeal panels in working out this lot, but maybe Covid issues will result in the school getting approval from the ESFA to a change for 2021-22 which may make it clearer.

As mentioned upthread, RC schools now have a much simplified baptised or not?

@MarchingFrogs that may be true of your local schools but in our area families need to provide a Certificate of Catholic Practice, and to get one of those from your priest you need weekly mass attendance (plus Holy Days of Obligation) over several years. The guidance for priests is here:
www.catholiceducation.org.uk/guidance-for-schools/admissions/item/download/40815_f29201aff0794ea087fa366c75634418

brhyamid, yes, I'd forgotten that, re the Certificate, but it just puts one at the top of the RC list (apart from RC LAC / PLAC) and none of the schools I can think of would ever actually fill up with children in that category. Most tend to go down to 'other Christian', if not actually to 'remaining applicants'.

The Ofsted Outstanding RC schools in my area fill up in the top category, so you'd definitely need a certificate. The Good/RI ones have a bit more leeway.

Just looking at some admissions threads, and wanted to add to this one that for CE schools, some dioceses have an agreed wording which is being sent to the adjudicator, and the decisions seem to be coming through quickly. Along the lines that 'when churches are closed, that time is discounted'.

This is a very popular church school in our area, they have actually simplified the points over the past ten years or so, you used to get extra church points for eg reading, running Sunday school, on the flower rota etc.
No discussion of variation for covid.
www.staidans.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Oversubscription-Criteria.pdf

Our local outstanding Church secondary has 2 levels of Church reference. The top level is that a parent has attended a Church in Churches Together (Catholic, C of E or Free church- it is unusual in being an ecumenical church school not of just 1 denomination) at least fortnightly for 3 years.

Apparently, in the last 5 years, everyone with this reference and within the very large catchment area got a place.

The second level of Church reference is someone who attends and known to minister/other leader. Many with this reference won’t get in.

So it distinguishes between those going occasionally or who just started the year before application and the real regulars. If you’ve moved into area they look for the same level of attendance at previous church.

Lots of Churches feed the school from Catholic, C of E and Free Church backgrounds. I know the big CofE has a register to avoid any doubt. Not sure about others.

With Covid and no church attendance in person, I’d expect the references to need to cover 2.5 years up to March. It isn’t always possible to know who is on Zoom and not all Churches do it anyway.

Most schools don’t have a 3 year fortnightly attendance criteria but very popular church schools seem to be moving in that direction. Probably a register is the fairest way under normal circumstances. To be honest it is often those who only started going for a school place who are keenest to be ‘seen’ and those actively involved for many years aren’t so worried about it. But I guess most Churches have those who go for years and years who still might not attend as regularly as fortnightly. Probably most ministers would give them the full reference as regularish for the very long term, but strictly speaking the dead-on 3 year attendee that has been every fortnight meets the criteria and the 15 year once a month doesn’t. It’s difficult for ministers who want to be fair but not school register takers....but probably they do need to do this for total fairness.

Any updates on Church school attendance rules for 2021 when no one has actually attended in person for months??

@WombatChocolate

Our local outstanding Church secondary has 2 levels of Church reference. The top level is that a parent has attended a Church in Churches Together (Catholic, C of E or Free church- it is unusual in being an ecumenical church school not of just 1 denomination) at least fortnightly for 3 years.

Apparently, in the last 5 years, everyone with this reference and within the very large catchment area got a place.

The second level of Church reference is someone who attends and known to minister/other leader. Many with this reference won’t get in.

So it distinguishes between those going occasionally or who just started the year before application and the real regulars. If you’ve moved into area they look for the same level of attendance at previous church.

Lots of Churches feed the school from Catholic, C of E and Free Church backgrounds. I know the big CofE has a register to avoid any doubt. Not sure about others.

With Covid and no church attendance in person, I’d expect the references to need to cover 2.5 years up to March. It isn’t always possible to know who is on Zoom and not all Churches do it anyway.

Most schools don’t have a 3 year fortnightly attendance criteria but very popular church schools seem to be moving in that direction. Probably a register is the fairest way under normal circumstances. To be honest it is often those who only started going for a school place who are keenest to be ‘seen’ and those actively involved for many years aren’t so worried about it. But I guess most Churches have those who go for years and years who still might not attend as regularly as fortnightly. Probably most ministers would give them the full reference as regularish for the very long term, but strictly speaking the dead-on 3 year attendee that has been every fortnight meets the criteria and the 15 year once a month doesn’t. It’s difficult for ministers who want to be fair but not school register takers....but probably they do need to do this for total fairness.

Any updates on Church school attendance rules for 2021 when no one has actually attended in person for months??

The schools either need to have admissions criteria that allow for churches being shut, or have applied for a variation for this year. For the following year, it would be a good idea to have a general purpose variation that applies as and when places of worship are closed. If they haven’t already done it for this year then they may be getting themselves into problems.