Will many 'alternative' schools survive?

[pippil0ngstocking]

I was thinking of Summerhill and how they'd deal with this pandemic, and I decided it was probably the fact that it's so well known that'll rescue it. Do you think other unusual schools are liable to shut, considering that they tend to have a small number of students?

Technical schools largely failed because many failed to actually be built in the first place. Those that did were mostly converted to, yes, grammar school or comprehensives or some became post 16 colleges (that's why people of a certain age often call their local FE College 'The Tech').
CTC were the first attempt at a modern version but only 15 or so were everywhere set up. Again if sometimes isn't built how can it have a chance to be a success.
There is only something like 3 or 4 CTC schools left. The ones I know of are very popular for parents to go to. Thomas Telford CTC is very successful and The Brit School is a CTC but obviously that is quite an unusual and unique school.
The UTC schools (and Studio Schools) haven't caught on either. The don't take children until age 14 though and I don't think they have ever been marketed very well because many people have never even heard of them and know they are an option for theirs children (I think some parents confuse them with PRU schools).
It always just seems the various governments make a half hearted effort at trying something 'different' and then announces it hasn't worked. But they don't work because they don't really try enough.
Remember the Diplomas as a GCSE alternative? That could have been a success but it wasn't given chance.

No uniform equals lots of jealousy when some DC wear really expensive stuff to School. Uniforms also lead to a sense of unity and belonging. They are often cheaper than a daily fashion show!

GCSEs form part of university admissions so of course bright DC do 10.

Not true.

DS has just finished a school which is classed as alternative. Definiteltly extremely different to every other school I have ever encountered. Children can wear whatever they want, and that can really mean anything. Many of the children come from exceedingly wealthy families and could afford to be dressed from head to toe in catwalk creations, in reality, they arent, even as 18 year olds they just arent bothered, it isnt important to them, they all have a penchant for primark.

Thry are on the whole also bright children but no one is permitted to do more than 9 GCSE s, schools philosophy being that universities only require 9 and therefore additional ones take away from valuable time that allows children time to pursue extracurricular and personal development activities which every child at that school does without prompting.
In this year certainly there isnt a single student who isnt going to university, grades are always good historically and the pupils go on to good universities.

I agree about the Diplomas. I worked on the development of them and was so excited by the chance to change things for less academic children, same as the Rose primary curriculum. Both great ideas abandoned at political whim.

My0My I am not against academic education. All children should have those opportunities. But it's the way those subjects are taught is not suitable for all.
There are 1000s of children who leaving school at 16 with just a handful of GCSEs/Btecs is currently a fantasy for them. They don't even get that far because the school system has already let them down.
It's heartbreaking for those children and heartbreaking that you don't understand this.

@Itscoldouthere

Just laughing at that uniform argument 😊 have you ever had children at a non uniform school MyOMy? Do you have experience of this?

Both DSs went to a non uniform school. Apart from a few girls no one gave two fucks what anyone else wore. And these girls became figures of fun until they stopped it.

Yes if children never wear a uniform and it doesn't exist in their world they will have pretty much out grown wearing their fancy favourite dress to school before they have even finished Reception year.

My dd school dropped uniform and I thought there would be a case of jealousy but there's been none.
There is no difference between those that have and those that haven't, tbh, they all spent their money in primark at the weekend, whoever they were, whatever country they came from.

Why split hairs over whether DC do 9 or 10 GCSEs? It’s immaterial really.

Many SEN children are in mainstream schools and struggle to do 9 GCSEs. The average child doesn’t. It’s by no means clear that non uniform and a different way of teaching will make a huge difference to outcomes. Not with the money available anyway. UTCs were not popular. Parents voted with their feet. Many were poorly run. DC were second class so you are back to grammar and secondary moderns. They didn’t send DC to high flying university courses with the best qualifications for the course. In fact many pupils really struggled.

Mine only took/ didn't take Maths, Eng, Eng lit, Comb sci, Art and Music.
& in total. She'll do Music and Art A level.
Those in alternative/ specialist schools usually have an idea what they want to do, mine has known since age 3.
She has been offered several places post A level already, one to study in Boston, so number of GCSE's is not important neither is grade.
3 GCSE's A - C and 2 A levels A - E is all she requires.

I think 9 GCSEs is too many. I would prefer about 5 to be the standard. That doesn't mean just doing 5 subjects but doing some subjects just because you want to learn it or find it interesting. Not about getting a grade out of it. I would like to see more term length courses that teens could do. A bit of variety and experience. But no mass panic over 'passing' or spending weeks and weeks of 'revising'. Learn something for a couple of months. If you want you could take that subject further (ie at college) or think "that was interesting - now I know that bit of knowledge or I know who to do that now" but it's done and I can move on.

"how to do that"
Not "who"

Except that most “interests” end up with an academic requirement. Dabbling is never enough unless you are talking about art related subjects. Often a portfolio is what’s needed but for degrees GCSEs are required and A levels. American universities are different and my DD got a place at Parsons New York. This is nothing like what’s required for Engineering or being a barrister or whatever else someone has taken an interest in. For practical DC, summer courses are available and who is going to resource schools for a whole array of short courses that, in many instances, would lead to nothing. Again if people wanted this, the feee school movement was there to provide it. If you take state education and don’t pay extra, you get what is provided. It’s not bespoke!

Here is a shocking concept for you My0My.... NOT EVERYONE GOES TO UNIVERSITY AND HAS A CAREER.
Has that even occurred to you.
Look at the Covid situation. 'Key Workers' have included those who work in retail, distribution, factories for food, lorry drivers, public transport drivers, rubbish collectors, postmen and other delivery drivers, carers, the non medical staff who work in the NHS....and many many more. Jobs which require knowing what to do - but you learn that as part of your job training.
If every single child in the UK went to uni and entered a career rather than a job - well we as a country would of been pretty much screwed by day two of lockdown.
Not everyone wants or needs A level's or university. Not every job requires an actual qualification to do that job. If children are being expected to be at school until they are 16 why shouldn't they have the opportunity to learn and do something they may never get the chance to do again once they get stuck into 'life'. Something that might grab their interest and lead them down a different life path or something that might just be a good skill for life in general.
You are correct in saying state education isn't bespoke. Unfortunately by making it 'equal' it means it is irrelevant and unachievable and (sometimes) pointless for a large amount of the country's youth.

Actually the government does provide 'bespoke' education for some in the state system. My daughter's secondary (a comprehensive) gives 10% of places to children who have an interest or talent in a certain field. This 10% get extra lessons and opportunities. Nice for the 10%. Another nearby secondary (also comprehensive) gives 10% but it is in two different fields so it is is 20% really. Nice for that 20%.
You also seem obsessed with Grammar Schools. A type of school that is specifically designed for academic children.
Your arguments only stand up if we had 100% fully comprehensive schools and nothing else in the state system.
But we're don't.

My arguments stack up because insufficient people want what you want. Many zero hours employment jobs don’t require qualifications. I’d rather not go down that route. I want to have qualified plumbers, farm workers and even chefs.

Of course plumbers and chefs need qualifications. I never mentioned those jobs.
Retail however. That's my background. Two decades. You do not need a qualification to get a retail job. You are given training on the job. If your job will be on the checkout you are taught how to use the equipment, they rules around age restricted products, what language to use to communicate to the customers etc. If you are a shelf filler you are taught to follow a planogram, rotate dates, health and safety rules over leaving packaging on the floor etc. That training is done in about 3 days. So you think it's worth the governments money to fund a (for example) btec in retail. A two year course for 16 - 18 years to learn what is usually taught within a few days.

For what it's worth @bookmum08 I, too, think there should be more alternatives available in the state system. The whole atmosphere in giant schools, is very competitive, unfeeling and generally unpleasant. There's also definite bias towards some, whilst others are left to suffer.

But I don't think that this pandemic will push the government into opening more, rather I think they'll support them less in order to save money-- because of course when times get bad people become increasingly conservative.

One Scandinavian country (Finland maybe) has a good system. It's quite easy to open for individuals/groups to run state-funded schools run according to whichever philosophy they like.

@DomDoesWotHeWants my comment was aimed mainly at MyohMy who seem so pro uniform.
My DC went to a uniform state primary, then non uniform state secondary, then private non uniform alternative school, so I’m finding this thread very interesting and amusing in places!

@pippil0ngstocking I’m just not sure I trust random groups to run schools that are actually good. And I say that as someone with a dd actually at an alternative school

@Onceuponatimethen I can understand that, but I think it becomes clear whether schools are good or bad quite quickly, and those which are unsuccessful simply shut down. All schooling is somewhat of a gamble, even the typical schools we have now, run by people with years of experience, fail large numbers of children.

Some anecdotal evidence: I was in top set but failing or on the verge of failing every subject at GCSE at my large state school. I just couldn't cope with the size of it and the atmosphere. This same school worked well for many of my classmates. When I moved to a tiny school I took on two more subjects than before and got an A* in all of them, and the teaching quality was certainly worse there.

I think it's worth the risk. Small scale attempts at different philosophies wouldn't cost much, and could benefit children greatly.

I do understand what you mean! I was at a tiny primary and really struggled in a huge secondary

I wouldn't want random groups to set up schools either which is why it makes me both laugh and be angry that people like My0My are just saying "just set up a free school if that's what you want - it's soooooooooo easy".
I wouldn't have a clue where to start the same as I couldn't just randomly set up any business that I have zero knowledge in.
My0My you said that want plumbers and chefs to be qualified (quite rightly so) yet seem to think it's fine for any Tom, Dick and Sally with zero background or experience in education and the 1001 other things related to schools like safeguarding etc to just "set up a free school".

@bookmum08 I sympathise with you the secondary education system broke my daughter and that is the reason she now attends a Steiner school. My daughter might well have thrived studying just five GCSEs at her own pace but because she was predicted top grades the pressure placed upon her was just too great. Even when it was obvious she was going to break the school wouldn't step back, wouldn't allow a reduced number of subjects or to place her in a lower set because they only recognised her worth in GCSE passes.
She lasted three months but for the last six weeks attendance was sporadic. Only when she had been out of school for three months did the school offer to allow her to drop RE (so that she could catch up what she had missed)
She will leave her current school with five GCSE's all being well but with her mental health in tact and lots of practical skills that she uses to pursue her interest in textiles and design which, to me, is most important.

hiredandsqeak your poor girl. I hope everything goes well for her.

I think there must be a significant number of children at any one time suffering as a result of the demands placed upon them by schools tbh. Dd has autism but the anxiety is the biggest difficulty and that combined with being academically able was a disaster for her.
For me. I don't see the need for ten or eleven GCSE's, sixth form colleges want just five in the most part anyway. Dd is loving the opportunity to just explore and pursue her interests and learning for herself where her strengths lie. These practical skills seem to ameliorate the anxiety she feels around school in general and by removing the pressure to perform it means she is able to show her ability in a way she feels comfortable.
Of course her placement costs the LA significantly but her placement is because there isn't any maintained provision available that would meet her needs.
I imagine alternative maintained provision will only happen when the numbers of children being damaged can't be ignored. In our LA they offer just five hours tuition for pupils who can't cope in school, only a small minority go into battle to secure full time provision elsewhere so it isn't yet financially sound to establish a maintained alternative provision when the LA gets away with spending less than £150pw on tutors for the majority of children out of school.