Will many 'alternative' schools survive?

[pippil0ngstocking]

I was thinking of Summerhill and how they'd deal with this pandemic, and I decided it was probably the fact that it's so well known that'll rescue it. Do you think other unusual schools are liable to shut, considering that they tend to have a small number of students?

@My0My

No uniform equals lots of jealousy when some DC wear really expensive stuff to School. Uniforms also lead to a sense of unity and belonging. They are often cheaper than a daily fashion show!

GCSEs form part of university admissions so of course bright DC do 10. No one has taken any notice of tests before then. GCSEs actually give the young person a portable set of qualifications. Sats don’t. Just teach your own dc if you want a creative alternative. Or find clubs and activities.

I went to a uniform school. It was blatantly obvious who the poor kids were. You can tell from the shoes, bag, trainers, condition of the uniform and just the way they carried themselves. I was one of the poor kids 😁

Good morning My0My. From reading your latest posts I don't think you have a clue what an 'alternative' school could be or what it could offer.

Why do you think children wouldn't be taking education 'seriously' if they attend a more relaxed/calm school environment. I don't have any official stats but there are 1000s of children who would benefit from something different to the highly academic schools that are generally all that's on offer. I belong to various Facebook groups devoted to the struggles so many children have in these 'normal' schools. All children are entitled to an education and all should have the opportunity to take national exams and gain qualifications. Sadly so many even make it to the exam stage as they simply cannot cope in 'normal' schools.

If there are 1000s of DC then free schools are the way forward. As these have not materialised I’m not sure there is a need for them. People vent on Facebook.

If you are talking about Send provision (which actually you are) then that’s a different argument. You do not have stats for your assertion but I bet if it was wildly popular there would be schools like this. As there are not, I believe parents who prefer this approach homeschool. They take exams and they have their own approach to learning. I doubt 1000s of homeschoolers do want schools. Even the type you advocate. They like the freedom of what they do.

Dd attends a Steiner school (the fees are paid by LA £68k pa) There is no uniform, not sure anybody takes much notice of what anyone else wears but generally they wear jeans/jeggings with a hoody or sweatshirt in winter replacing the hoody with a checked shirt in spring and then t shirts in summer. So they seem to have adopted a uniform of sorts anyway. Shoes tend to be fake converse/vans or trainers essentially easy to get on and off because of the need to change to wellies/workboots/pumps depending on the activity.
Demand for dd's school remains high, in fact they are full until September when students move on and assessments have been happening in lockdown so imagine any places will be filled pretty quickly.

Specialist (as opposed to special) schools do exist. The majority of the children will be funded by their local authority. That won't have changed during lockdown. One local to me costs £64k per annum. Autism specialist, very small classes, very limited GCSEs.

No LA all shell out fees of £68k unless there is demonstrated need. State schools like this cannot be afforded so they don’t exist.

Mine boards at a specialist music school and is part of the MDS, we are low income so most of the fees are paid by the scheme, as most other parents there.
I don't think they will be affected as they are charities and have stood all the other recessions the country has been through.
Not sure if you meant this type of school.

Yes MyOMy Dd has an EHCP the place is funded through that. To get that though needed independent assessments by SALT/OT and Ed Psych and a educational law solicitor and an appeal to Tribunal. Our LA are also currently paying £200pw for a tutor for dd (despite me asking them to stop) because we apparently need a meeting with the tutor service, myself, the school and the LA so that we can all agree that the tutor can be withdrawn. Of course in lockdown there appears to be no urgency to do anything so they are continuing to fund.

MyOMy where did I say I was talking about SEN schools? I never said that. I said 'alternative'. Schools perhaps like the UTCs but less technology/business based. Places like the Brit School. UTCs and the Brit School are only 14+ though.
I never said 'homeschoolers' want to have an 'alternative' school provided by the state instead of homeschooling. I know people whom homeschool. They want to homeschool.
The government have made it almost impossible to set up free schools BTW.

You didn’t but your description of the pupils looks like SEN traits to me. As the description above. The utcs are mostly poor. The Brit school is fiercely competitive to get in. Hardly suitable for dc and parents who cannot face Sats. Honestly. This discussion is going nowhere. Who on earth wants UTCs for mainstream schools? Many people thought they were useless and definitely for low achievers. Many of whom had SEN - sometimes not identified. Also DC who struggled in mainstream school with the academics. Look at their results. Largely poor.

think it is deeply unfair that there are state funded academic schools (ie Grammar Schools), state funded faith schools, state funded secondary schools that have a speciality that can allow a certain percentage of pupils to go there due to that speciality even if they live miles away taking the places of children who live locally. Why can't we have state funded 'alternative' schools if we can have just about every other type of specialist state funded schools.

All those schools will follow the ‘state approved‘ national curriculum though which is why they get funding?

They do EYFS baseline, phonic screeners, SATs, times table tests, GCSEs, A levels. All the things the government want schools to do.

Would an alternative school? If they don’t follow the state curriculum and don’t do the state tests, why would the state fund them?

I never said I wanted ALL schools to be like this. Just some. Like how some schools are Grammar School. I never said some children can't face SATS - I just believe they are pointless. All they are for is league tables. I know several children who enjoyed doing the SATS but really their results are meaningless to them personally.
I don't know where you live but some of the UTCs/Studio Schools I know of are difficult to get into. They are mostly STEM based so not for the less academic at all.
(I will admit I don't know why the UTC scheme hasn't been more successful - maybe it's parental attitudes like yours that hasn't helped).
Many children who can't cope with Mainstream often do have a SEN of some sort but some of those needs (the 'N' obviously) doesn't always mean a learning difficulty or autism. It is often high levels of anxiety. Anxiety over the expectations of getting far to many GCSEs at high grades. The panic over doing something wrong or failing something when really not everything should be about pass/fail - it should be about just 'doing'.
I could go on.
Have you ever read A S Neill's books about the Summerhill philosophy? Obviously some of the original things were a bit hippy dippy and the school has had issues in the past but it's interesting reading about how children learn and the different stages they go through at different ages.

Letseat Academies and Free Schools are state funded. They don't HAVE to follow the national curriculum or even have their pupils take national exams.
Most do however. But they don't HAVE to. The state DOES fund 'alternative' schools - ie through the Academy/Free Schools schemes. They do exist. They are just very very rare. If the government wanted every single child to follow the National Curriculum they would stop funding Academy and Free Schools.

Academies and free schools aren't rare - they're all over the place! Thousands of 'em! All free to offer whatever sort of curriculum they want. I suspect most don't simply because of economies of scale - there isn't demand. And low numbers on roll means no money to pay staff, and eventual closure.

Gosh well this got quite heated. I was thinking of any private schools that are unusual: my own childhood school got shut down during this, as it was their part of their approach to have very small classes (around 6 per class). Others that come to mind are small Steiner schools and schools which are a part of the 'small school' movement.

Yes Academies and Free Schools aren't rare. That's not what I meant. I meant schools that are something different to what most are - ie not
a academic uniform obsessed conform factory.
As for the 'parents don't want alternative schools because they send them all to academies so that's what they clearly want' argument is wrong. They send them there because often that is the ONLY state funded school in the area.
My hometown has 3 Secondary Schools. All are Academy Schools. You get 3 'choices' on the application form. Where else are you meant to apply to if that's ALL THERE IS.
Also the reason academy/free schools end up following the national curriculum is because of the GCSE exam system and the fact children DO need to have GCSEs to move on to the next stage in their lives. Schools are a bit stuck. They know they can't let their students down by not offering a full set of GCSE options. So they have to do it.
One of the 3 schools I mentioned above is highly disliked in the town. It may have the fancy uniform and gained a new name a few years ago but it is one of the worse schools in the country (apparently - according to Ofsted reports I believe). It has massive bullying issues. So many parents don't want their children to go there but there is no other option if the other 2 schools are full. These children are entitled to a state education. It's so unfair that so many children are having a miserable time at the school they end up at.
I don't know what the answer is - I just think it is deeply unfair that the state provides Grammar Schools for the academic but really doesn't offer much of an alternative for the non academic children. It's unfair and that's the opinion I am sticking too.

Interesting that the OP never came back to this thread...

Oh. The OP is back..

Free schools are not difficult to set up if you have a strong business plan, credible and effective governance, good financial forecasts, enough demand for places and are offering something that is wanted and needed by a significant demographic for the foreseeable future. There are good examples of free schools that have been able to do that (Kensjngton Aldridge, Pimlico), but the difficulty comes when demographics don't support the need for more school places in an area, or parents don't want to take a risk on a school with no history. Schools that are single academy trusts (all free schools are academies) are more likely to face financial viability issues as they can't benefit from economies of scale.

New free schools set up and are funded on the basis of estimated pupil numbers until all years groups are present. This allows them to fund for growth rather than the lagged census funding that established schools receive. If they over estimate pupil numbers they are required to repay the difference between estimated pupils and actual pupils the following financial year, if they under estimate they receive a lump sum with the difference. Schools are funded per pupil.

Most free schools over estimate, then don't budget for repaying their additional funding and end up in debt to the DfE, which can be repaid under flexible terms but is often compounded year on year by the same issue. That is why a lot of free schools close - they can't afford to stay open, they can't attract sufficient pupils, they can't pay good staff because of low pupil numbers so educational outcomes suffer, which then leads to fewer pupils, and egos won't allow them to join with an established MAT who can help them to restructure. A lot of free schools are set up by really strong educationalists with good ideas (eg Robert Owen Free School) but close because financial management and oversight is poor.

My hometown has 3 Secondary Schools. All are Academy Schools. You get 3 'choices' on the application form. Where else are you meant to apply to if that's ALL THERE IS.

Well if one of them offered an alternative curriculum you could apply to that one! None of them are choosing to do so - so ask them why? I'll bet it's because they don't think anyone will want it!

If you feel strongly about it get some like minded parents together and set up a free school.

No they generally don't offer an alternative curriculum because all roads lead to GCSEs. Students DO need to have some GCSEs to move forward to the next stage of life. Schools are very much tied to the national curriculum because of the GCSE system.
No I don't think it's easy to set up an free school. I know many people who would love to do it but it's not exactly simple if you have no access to money or the relevant knowledge or skills to do it.
If you left school with half a dozen GCSEs with meh grades, fell into a minimum wage job and got stuck in the living month to month world then setting up a Free School is not easy. And why do so many people have them background of half a dozen meh GCSEs and low paid jobs ? - because they education system is highly based on academic sucess which is not suitable for all children.
Plan B - bring back Technical Schools. The 1944 education act was supposed to have 3 types of schools. Grammar, Modern and Technical.
Looking back at what subjects I did actually enjoy at school I think I would of loved a Technical School rather than a Comprehensive.

Plan B - bring back Technical Schools. The 1944 education act was supposed to have 3 types of schools. Grammar, Modern and Technical

How do you decide which child goes to which school? I live in Kent which is fully selective, the 11plus is a deeply flawed and unfair system which mostly rewards those with parents who have the time, knowledge and finances to put into getting their child into grammar school.

To be honest, would you want your child to go to a school set up by someone with half a dozen meh GCSEs? There is a reason that any application that isn't fully formed and without some financial and educational expertise doesn't get through the panel process. It's not discriminatory, but it is sensible- wouldn't that group of parents be better served by canvassing for people with relevant experience and interest in setting up the school? Or approaching an existing trust and putting the case for partnership at application and implementation phase?

No I wouldn't want my child to go to a school run by someone with half a dozen meh GCSEs. That's why I haven't set up one of these 'easy to set' up free schools. (I am the one who has half a dozen meh GCSEs by the way)
If we had technical schools how would it be decided which children go there? Well presumably the same system as now. You apply and hope you come under that schools admissions criteria.

In general people don’t want an alternative school in the numbers it needs to make them viable. Who wants a few GCSEs and a few technical skills at 16.

Very many UTCs have not been successful. Some have been panned by Ofsted. They are useful for a few school refusers and those who would be in Prus. Most parents are not interested in them and at least 10 have closed. What they offered was very low level technical education and a DC capable of better largely didn’t go to one.

The old technical schools were second class to the grammar schools and the secondary moderns were third class. It’s divisive and people didn’t like it. Decent comps serve all DC. The grammars in my county are all the old Technical schools and the grammars. The secondary moderns still exist and many have 6th forms. They offer BTecs and this is where you mix and match your exams. This is clearly acceptable to many parents who want a less intense education and some are extremely popular.

UTCs were the new version of technical schools! They have largely failed. You also don’t seem to realise that the old technical High schools also offered an academic education. They were not just about woodwork and typing. That’s why, in my county, they converted to grammar schools.