Son excluded from reception class - advice please! (sorry, quite long)

[prudencepinkleg]

hi. I could really do with some advice on this. ds2 has just started in reception at an independent school. He's previously been to nursery and when there was initially selectively mute and as a result would express himself with outbursts of temper. They managed to deal with him over nearly 3 years and eventually he was talking freely and the tantrums had diminished a lot. Now he's started somewhere new and doesn't know anybody it's obviously a very hard situation for him. He is an anxious little boy and finds it incredibly hard to get to know other children. So in the first 2 weeks he had 2 quite bad outbursts. And yes they were bad (throwing, standing on tables etc) and he needed restraining by the class teacher. However, in his defence he was in a new place with full days AND sickening for a bad viral croup the 2nd time. PLUS he'd made loads of progress in interacting and settling down. Anyway, we have been asked to remove him from school for the forseeable future until we can see a paediatrician and get his behaviour sorted. But keeping him away is not going to help him and dh and I feel they should support us and come to a compromise (eg mornings only and me on call) but they don't seem too willing. Another option for us to take him to one of the local village schools (very small) but that does mean another change although he does know 2 boys there already. It's complicated by the fact ds1 is now there in yr2 (new school for him too) and is settling well. HELP!!

Yes I'm sure you're right about it being a mum thing. Well, I'm off for an early night now. Think tomorrow could be another full-on day trying to occupy ds and sort out his future! Will keep you posted. PPL xxx

I'd really recommend a clinical psych (preferably as part of a multidisciplinary team) over an ed psych for an ASD diagnosis (or non diagnosis). The 'rank' order is developmental paed, clinical psych then ed psych. TBH an ed psych shouldn't really be diagnosing.

ASD doesn't always have a genetic link (although it is heritable). There is no autism in our family, nor any traits, except severely autistic ds1- lots of autoimmunity though. Autism traits in family members may be more relevant in cases of HFA/AS. Anxiety (and therefore OCD as well) may overlap in those cases in particular.

I don;t think it matters whether the school your son attends is state or independent as long as they're willing to provide the level of support your son needs. The school he's at at the moment doesn't seem to be very willing. Some state schools are good, some useless, but it sounds as if the local one are making the right noises.

For OCD/ASD etc issues have a read of Donna Williams webpage- lots on there (and she does email consultations which are very good).

Thanks gess that's really interesting. Well, here's the latest. We had a meeting and it seems as though his current school are being more supportive. They have decided to train their staff (or at least some of them) in suitable restraining techniques so that ds is restrained in the correct way that won't cause injury to him or the person holding him. They have also enlisted the help of a behavioural worker to get a plan drawn up of strategies to help both him and staff. And they have a SEN teacher on the staff who they have timetabled to be with ds 2.5 days each week. This all kicks off in a couple of weeks so he will still need to be at home until then. And after that he will only be allowed in on the days the SEN in with him. I think this sounds ok since I don't think he is ready for full-time school yet due to getting extremely tired. But I'm still wondering about the whole situation and whether this is right. He has clearly gone back in his behaviour this last week (although he has been very poorly anyway) and I'm very worried about him.

Well it sounds like a huge improvement tbh. If the SEN is effectively 1-1, then that may just be what he needs. If he needs more then presumably she would identify that and then you have the required discussions as to whether this is the right school (as I can't imagine that they will give him that level of 1-1 indefintiely unfunded).

Sounds like you're making some progress. Gess has explained the ASD genetic bit heaps better than i did the other night, pointing out that it can be genetically linked - but lots of times it isn't. glad that got a clearer posting than mine!!
It worries me a bit that the whole thing that the school are offering seems to hinge on one person; what happens if that person is off sick? I try to make sure that where I work we support students with 1:1, but not with the one staff member for all of that time - so that a number of people know how each student works and what their needs and preferences are, and again something important to your LO, can work with their communication methods however limited these might be. Did anyone say whether there would be a cost implication to what they are offering?

Oh this really irritates me (but a state school may not do any better). When ds1 was in mainstream they requested restraint training (for a 5 year old ffs) BEFORE asking for any training in ASD/behavioural training. I was particularly irritated as I knew (from spies ) that the schools mismanagement of behavioural situations was escalating the behavioural issues in the first place and that if they managed him properly they wouldn't need restrain training (for comparison ds1 has been in a special school for 2 and a half years and hasn't once been restrained).

I agree that the reliance on one person isn't great, but that can also happen in State schools. Ds1 had full time 1:1 in mainstream and that was delivered by one person (then 2 part timers). I was phoned up at 8.10am and told not to bring him in on more than one occasion (because the LSAs were off sick). You may also get NO extra support in a state school - it doesn't sound as if your son's issues are enough to get a statement so you may be better off with the extra 1:1 and smaller class. They do at least sound as if they are considering it. I think you are well within your rights to express concern at restraint training BEFORE any basic behavioural techniques have been tried. Mainstream state schools are often useless at dealing with challenging behaviours (ds1's certainly was) so unless the village school has good experience with SN (and some do- and can be brilliant) then I'd be a litte bit careful about switching until you've established that they're likely to be able to cope.

Gosh it's difficult. I am feeling very stressed with the whole thing and it isn't helping as ds is not making life easy at home. He is still not completely better from the virus he's had and he must know that people are talking about him, even though we're careful not to do it in front of him. His behaviour at times is awful and the majority of the time I can't engage him in anything. We're going to the docs this am to see if he needs any antibiotics (hoping not). I almost feel saturated with thinking about it, if that makes sense! As for things with school and the cost of it all there has been no hint that we are paying - I think though we must clarify this soon.

Makes no difference what type of school your child is at. The current one does not sound great. They are not doing good by your child and are failing him.

I think I'd be trying an alternative school.

HI prudencepinkleg-My son is 6 and has selective mutism and speech problems.
He also displays some sensory issues.

We are currently going through the statementing process and hope to get him some 1 on 1 help.
He is in year 2 at the moment.

I had real problems getting him to school last term and the outbursts you describe we were getting at home but not at school.
He is an anxious little boy and hates loud noises and crowds.

He has settled into year 2 a lot better and I am going into school twice a wek for sliding in sessions to help his confidence.

As for your DS I think the school were put of order excluding him and am pleased they need see to be getting advice on how to deal with this and understand it.

Was your DS talking in reception?

I've found from my Ds that he needs someone he can trust in school and feels comfortable with and not to be made to feel under pressure.
Getting into a routine and explaining any major changes also eases my sons anxietys.

It is difficult dealing with people in a school who have no idea of your sons problems and a paediatrician or an ed psych will be of great help in getting them to give your son the right support he deserves.

Excluding him and delaying the issue is'nt helpful,they need to deal with it.

It would have been a big thing for your son as with my son with his selective muteness to start a new school with new teachers and new children.

With my ds ,he does'nt talk at school but tends to have moments of extreme frustration and shouting when he gets home.
It must be so difficult and the anxiety builds through the day and the only way he knows how to realise it is in this way.

Maybe your son is anxious in school and concerned about talking so lets out his frustration in other ways?

I think you've hit the nail on the head sunflower - he's letting out his frustration as he doesn't know a better way to communicate his feelings. The thing that makes the exlusion all the more maddening is that he liked it in reception and was beginning to interact and speak after only being there a week and a half. Major progress as far as we were concerned. We have really noticed a change in his behaviour at home since this has all been going on and he is clearly unhappy about the whole school thing as he refuses to talk about it and buries his head if I raise the subject. Also, this morning I have been told by the GP that what I thought was a viral croup is actually asthma so they nebulized him in the surgery and have now given him steroids to take with another appointment next week. He must be really anxious about things.

Hi prudence-if your DS was starting to talk after a week and a half that is a major breakthrough as far as selective mutism is concerned and should be seen as such.

If the school were aware of his SM and understood it prior to him joining reception they would know what a big thing this is for your DS.

Unfortunatly like my sons school it sounds as though they had no prior training beforehand to deal with this.
My son has a new teacher and I quickly gathered from the first couple of days that she knew very little about SM and was dealing with my son in the wrong way.
That can be very damaging and set them back.

Your DS sounds very much like my son in that he would never talk about school at home and looked away or had a blankness to his expression.

What I have started doing isinviting some of the children from his new class home after school for DS to build up his confidence in his own surroundings.
He will talk a little bit, more of a playfullness or being a little bit naughty to get over his shyness.

What I will say is if he was starting to talk in class and liked going then that should be encourgaed as my Ds had quite a bit of time out of school last year and once you get into that cycle it is difficult to get back on track again and he may start getting more anxious about going back the longer it is left.

I really feel your frustration with the school and not sure that they are allowed to just exclude him like that in the circumstances.
Which is probably why they are enlisting the SENCO and being more supportive.

Sorry to hear about your DS's asthma.
All this at school can't be helping and hope he gets the support he needs.

Hi sunflower. We had told the school about his communication problems before he started but they said the explosions of temper were much worse than they imagined they would be. I understand that it was probably quite a shock to see a 4.5 year old get so angry and throw etc but as I say we had informed them. As for the talking he had made HUGE strides at nursery. From not speaking, to pointing, to whispering and at the end to speaking freely over the course of the 2 years he was there. So I suppose in one sense you could it was sorting itself out but naturally in a new place it was going to be more difficult so to be starting to talk after only a week was fabulous. Having some children back home is a good idea; that should help to make it easier with his peers as he has more or less told me that is one thing he finds difficult, getting to know others. I do think it makes it harder not going to school and when he is allowed back in a couple of weeks I wouldn't be surprised if there are some problems. At least he comes in with me to pick up ds1 so he is not completely away from the environment altogether.

Hi

Sorry for butting in but I thought you needed to know to look out for possible behavioural issues as a result of steroids...

I presume your DS has been prescribed prednisolone tablets as you say steroids, rather than a steroid inhaler?

If so, just a word of caution that others have had issues with these causing poor behaviour in young children - often resulting in them being out of control or hyper....

you might find it useful to go to the asthma uk site for more info on asthma and children, and there is also a parent's forum where you can chat or get advice...

Hope things start to improve soon.

Kat

Thanks for that - yes it's prednisolone tablets so I'll keep an eye out. Will have a look at the link too!

I would talk to your local school, see what kind of senco they have and what they could do for your child, I would also have a meeting at his current school and ask them how they can help your child and what they intend to do to support him, I am sorry but they do not sound as if they are going to do much, I would look elsewhere.

Prudence-How are things?

Hi again from prudence!
Well the debate about schools for ds has gone on and on and on for the whole of term. ds was in the independent school for 2.5 days each week from half-term - we decided to give it a go rather than a big upheaval for him as he finds change so hard. Anyway, to cut a very long story short they have decided that they cannot cope with him and have asked us to take him out permanently. I am V. angry as if they weren't committed they should never have had him back. It's him I feel sorry for. His self-esteem must be rock bottom and to be honest I almost feel that he became what they made him. So now we need to get him into the village school, but guess what? No places. We have lodged an appeal but does anyone know whether this is a formality or whether they can actually turn you away from your local school? Sorry if this a bit garbled - my head is all over the place.

Have to go out but will be back later on. Any advice much appreciated. PPL x

Hi -- I remember your thread from before, and I'm so sorry you and your Ds have been treated so badly!

Appeals are not just 'a formality', and a local school can certainly turn you away if it is full. This is especially the case with Reception & Y1 & Y2 because of something called 'Infant Class Size Prejudice' which means classes cannot be over 30. It is very hard to win an appeal in these circumstances. However, though I haven't read your thread through again, I remember that your DS has had a lot going on with his behaviour that might change your case and put you in a much stronger position. I think a child in his circumstances has a very good case to make for needing stability to thrive and reach his potential (what the last school couldn't provide!). Hopefully your LEA will explain the appeals process to you, but I found Ben Rooney's book 'How to Win Your Appeal' very informative and honest. There are various websites that should help. I would put the links in but have to go and record 'Heroes' for DH right now (sad! ).

As camicazi said, unfortunately if your village school has no places then yes, they can turn you away - class sizes are not allowed to go above 30. The LEA is only obliged to find you a school place - it doesn't have to be at a school of your choosing or even the one closest to you. Is it possible to put him on a waiting list for Yr 1 at the school if your heart is set on it,home ed him this year and hope that a space becomes available (if another child leaves, say)? Or have you investigated schools further away that might not be full this year?

Thanks that's helpful. I'm hoping that the fact we have some evidence to back up his behavioural issues will help us. The appeal is next Friday so luckily we don't have to wait for too long.

The fact that it is an independent school is irrelevant to me. Treat it as you would do any other place. Find an alternative that is prepared to help and support him. This school does not sound as if they are going to.

PP - BUT if / when you can get a statement, then you can insist that the local school take him.

has the assesment / dx progressed? I would follow Gess' plan and do everything you can to get a dx and then a statement. Then you will be at the very top of the schools waitning list, at least.

he still isn't 5, is he?

How very infuriating. Were there places in thevillabe school when you were first having trouble at the independent?

and PP - put this in SEN and / or Special Needs, where the maximum number pf MN-ers with detailed knowledge in this area will be able to help you.

take him to the village school, he will have much closer monitoring from Local authority and they should be more inclusive.
I hope you manage to get the support you need