Uniform rules.

[lou33]

I just wanted to get a few opinions from parents and teachers on this.

Dd1 is year 8, and the school has issued every pupil with a letter about school uniform, which I have had to sign and return, saying i have seen it.

It states that uniform has become a serious issue, with some pupils refusing to look smart and conform (I haven't seen anything too jawdropping myself, just usual older kids trying to look cool), so from last monday the head (newly appointed) has insisted (their wording) on four rules.

These are, ties to be worn at an appropriate length and done up, shirts to be tucked in, school jumpers or sweatshirts to be worn at all times inside the school unless given premission in class by a teacher to remove it, but it has top be put on at the end of the lesson to go to the next class, and no trainers except for pe, or with a medical letter from a gp. Black shoes only.

The letter then goes on to say tha tany child who does not conform will have parents contacted to be sent home to get properly dressed before they can go back into lessons, and if this is not possible, then they will be excluded from lessons, isolated for the day and supervised by a teacher.

I just think the punishment is extreme for the crime iyswim. It seems ridiculous to exclude someone for not wearing a jumper for example, and an awful lot of extra time given over to teachers who could be doing something more productive. I don't see sense in it, and to me it seems more about social control than educating pupils.

Am i missing the point?

Dd is not likely to get into trouble for any of these reasons btw, but for some reason this has been playing on my mind.

And no, for some kids a rational rule is still not accetable. I had to argue with a child that she had to wear goggles while handling acid ffs, how much more reasonable can you get than that rule?

The argue because they are teenagers. If you let a little rule go, they push at another and another.

there was an article in the local paper here last week, about a local school cracking down on uniform and 2 pupils being isolated because they were wearing the wrong colour socks. They were wearing everything else absoluletely correctly and were not trouble makers but has white socks on rather than navy blue.So had letters home and were isolated.If I was there parents I would be steaming.
I think school uniform is a good thing, but I think there are limits!

they were boys who were wearing trousers over their socks too¬!

I'm not a teacher, but I agree with hmb. Many years ago I attended a school with a very strict uniform code (specially made by 1 shop) and I agree it's all about discipline - surely that's why correct uniform is so important in the Armed Forces

HMB, I?m sure you would ?prefer? to have a bunch of subservient parents and pupils who would do exactly what they are told all the time without arguing with you, I?m sure the medical profession, the police, the armed forces, the government, and practically every other institution in the world would agree with you ? all institutions would rather not be challenged, it?s extra work.

But all institutions have faults and need to be challenged, and I reserve the right to question what I don?t agree with, without being told that that gives me no right to use the institutions concerned. It?s like being told you can?t phone the police when you get burgled, if you disagree with institutional racism. I find it incredible that anyone in any profession feels that if any aspect of an institution or a profession is questioned, that is evidence of some kind of ?undermining?. What precisely would you find acceptable in terms of being challenged?

As for disagreeing with homework, why shouldn?t parents disagree with it? I won?t go into the reasons why I disagree (I think it?s been done to death on other threads) but it?s quite extraordinary that disagreeing with a current educational fashion should lead to an accusation of being responsible for out of control schools.

I agree with you HMB I think uniform is A VERY GOOD THING

I went to a comprehensive school and we ahd prefects on the doors making sure that you were dressed correctly before coming in ties, shirts tucked in etc.

I think that parents should resect teachers much more than they do and if they disagree with the uniform they should send their children to a different school. IMHO.

IME when you find out about a school before you send your child there they tell you about the uniform. DS goes to a primary school and looks very smart in his white shirt and tie, grey trousers etc. the school have fleece zip ups or seatshirts for them to wear.

When I was a nanny in canada they do not wear uniform and there was a daily battle over what the DD1 was allowed to wear, and it couldn't possibly be something she had worn within the last week that would be terrible, there was so much bullying at the school.

But Meanbean, where do you draw the line? If everyone stopped obeying the rules/laws they disliked where would we be?

I agree completely with a uniform code and do think that if you've agreed to send your child to a particular school, you've agreed to abide by their rules. When the rules are changed dramatically then yes, question them, but you can't expect them to take your side if you are a minority voice (medical/religeous grounds etc excepted.)

As I said you are free to lobby and make whatever changes that you see fit.

As you have never seen me teach you have no idea if I like subservient kids, as a matter of fact I don;t

Please don't liken fighting something imposrant, like racism with wearing uniform, it trivialises the argument. I see racism every day, and do plenty about it.

What do I do with a kid who want to swear at me, or spit at another child, or threaten to pour acid over another kid? You talk the talk about finding this sort of thing unaceptable, but fail to realise that the single biggest reason that kids don't behave is that their parent treat the school rules and staff with contempt, so the kids follow suit.

If you don't like the school rules that much, change them or home ed. Just don't make my life any harder, it is quite tough enough as it is

But that is what I am saying: that parents have the right to lobby for rules that they don't like to be changed. And that is not the same as treating rules with contempt. You seem to be saying that if parents don't like a rule, that automatically puts them in the category of people who approve of kids throwing acid at each other. I simply don't get that jump.

Oh god

I didn't want anyone to have an argument because of my thread.

Hmb, a huge amount of what you are saying makes sense, and I don't disagree with uniform and having boundaries, I was just genuinely interested to see if I was overreacting. This is a new uniform policy btw, not one that was there when dd1 started, and the uniform itself isn't asformal as the school you describe, there are no blazers and they wear sweatshirts. And I wasn't so much querying the change of rules either, but more specifically the punishment if it was not followed. It just seems quite extreme for the crime iyswim.

Dd has been in quite a few schools over the years, one with even stricter (and v expensive) uniform regs, everything had to come from the same shop etc, but if the uniform code wasn't followed properly we were just sent a note home to deal with it. I just thought exclusion for a uniform misdemeanour seemed ott with the impression the letter gave out, that's all.

I'm sorry if anyone has been upset by this thread. I was just trying to see if I was being an overreactive twit with nothing better to do.

Thank you all for your posts anyway.

I don't think the punishment is too severe as such. A lot depends how they actually use it in practice. Would they send a child home for forgetting their jumper on one occasion or would they actually use a warning system and send home repeat offenders. By sending the letter home, they've made it clear that they intend sending "offenders" home but they may not actually do this to the full extent that it implies.

No, but if you let your child break a rule you are treating that rule with contempt.

If you don't like it, try to change it, but don't do, as one father did to one of my pupils say, 'Teachers only set homework because they are too lazy to do the work in class'.

Just how easy do you think it is to get that kid to do homework, and want to guess how many grades he has slipped over the last 2 years?

If you don't like school rules that much, don't send them, home ed.

We need rules, or the kids would run riot. I had a child threaten to throw acid over another last week. Today I had a child refuse to waer goggles when working with acid. The fisrt girl them tolf me to fuck off. Tell me, from your distance, what should I have done? reason with them for half an hour, or simply tell them it was the rule. And if you think it should have been the former, who would be teaching the other kids?

You thought it was a silly rule banning kissing in school and then I told you the reality. Do you still think that was a stupid rule?

Spend a day in your local comp with a bottom set class and tell me how you feel about rules at the end of the day.

Aaaargh at that parent, hmb!

I agree that it's worth thinking about the school's uniform policy before you apply. We're currently looking at secondary schools, and have seen a Catholic comprehensive with incredibly strict uniform rules (WHITE tights to be worn at all times, naff kilts to mid-calf, blazer at all times, etc.) and a v. academic grammar school with a much more relaxed uniform policy (two colour options for shirts, choice of skirts or trousers etc). Clearly they feel their girls are sufficiently motivated for them to allow a certain amount of leeway with the clothes, whereas the Catholic school have a much more mixed intake, and feel they have to enforce the uniform v. firmly to keep everyone in line.

Personally, I prefer the grammar school's approach (more grown-up, I think, and suitable for dd1 who is inclined to be stroppy). That's a personal choice, but one you need to be clear about BEFORE you choose the school. Once there, I tend to feel you've signed up for the package.

I am sorry lou I obviously misread your thread about it being a different/new rule about school uniform and that it had changed from when you had started with the school.

At DS school the parents asked if girls could wear trousers to school it went to the governors and now the girls are allowed to choose grey trousers or skirts. They still are very smart.

Hmb, was your last post directed at me?

Frogs, what happens if rules change after you have started though?

I haven't told dd my feelings btw. As far as she is concerned, I have told her that she goes to school respectably dressed, following their rules, and if for some reason she is found to be breaking the rules, then she will have to take the punishment. However I think I would be rather upset at the thought of her being excluded for not wearing a jumper, or having one less stripe showing on her tie, because she had to get dressed after pe quickly, for example. The letter doesn't actually say if this will apply on the very first time someone is found to have incorrect uniform, or if it is for those who are always trying to breacht heir rules. I suppose that should be cleared up

No, m'dear not you Lou, it was to Mean bean.

And I fully endorse what you have done as the mature actions of a caring parent, not to create a preblem for the school but being prepared to lobby to change things.

I would ask the school just how stricly they are realy going to play this. We send kids home, but only when they go way over the mark to be boshie, Like the kid this week how insisted on wearing his trainers because he couldn't find his shoes, even tho they were sticking out of his bag (you can't make this sort of crap up )

Ok, it was hard to work out with the racket emanating from my house right now

Yes, lou, that last post was addressed to later parts of the discussion rather than your original post.

I think all the points your school are making are reasonable (as in just normal part of looking tidy) apart from the one about the jumper. A rule about not being allowed to take your jumper off was brought in when dd1 was in Year 2 , I think as a response to kids p*ssing about all day putting jumpers on and off. In fact it died a very quick death, because of its manifest unreasonableness.

Under the same circs, I'd probably wait a week or two to see how rigorously the school was enforcing it. If they were actually forcing the kids to wear jumpers in v. hot rooms for example, I would write a letter to the headteacher making it clear that I felt the rule was unreasonable, and that I was finding it difficult to support the school in the face of regulations which reduced the children's ability to work by making them uncomfortable.

Does that sound sensible?

Message withdrawn

If there are school rules on uniform then they should be followed to the letter. The time for looking 'cool' is outside school not in it. Uniform is a great leveller - everyone turns up for school looking the same - theres no keeping up with the Joneses in a fashion sense and everyone can focus on school and learning.
We were always told that we were ambassadors for our school and how we looked reflected on the school and it standards - I might have whinged a bit as a teenager but I can see how right this is. Its like being a member of a special club and part of a big team all working together to make yours the best - uniforms should be worn with pride (like wearing your favourite sporting teams shirt). If a school uniform calls for grey socks - why not? If you're buying socks get grey ones whats the big deal? Getting pupils and parents to comply with school uniform rules is part of the big picture in getting everyone to comply with other more serious rules. If you can't get parents backing on something as basic uniform chances are they are going to be contentious about other issues - children need to see that their parents back the school. More than ever today teachers need our backing and support and I for one think they do a cracking job in sometimes trying circumstances and I wouldn't do it for a gold clock!!!

hmb and any other teachers out there I take my hat off to you!

Oh I fully agree with all the examples of punishments for the children you have specified. I would go ballistic at any of my kids for being deliberately rude or antagonistic to a teacher (or any adult actually). I just wonder about the validity of some of the rules, and also if it is possibly about the new head making his presence felt.

My last post was to hmb btw.

I am not questioning the validity of having a uniform, just whether the new punishments are over excessive.

I just asked DD about how they are clamping down , and she says that she hasn't been pulled up herself, but plenty of pupils have been refused entry to classrooms until they have their jumpers on. She doesn't know if anyone has been excluded though, and it's a pretty big school, so I couldn't really expect her to know.

Sounds similar to what we do, no-one leaves or enters unless properly dressed. In a class if it is hot you can relax a rule if you see fit. In all honesty the rules are seldom broken because of over heating, just because they want to push at a rule. I'd rather they push at that one than another!

The thing that amuses me a little is that if a poster said that her dh/p had undermined her rule about something there would be uproar on MN, unsupportive swine etc etc, how can you raise a kid if you don't agree to the basics etc etc

But there are plenty of mn's (not you lou) who feel that it is OK to undermine the school.

Don't see the logic myself.