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Original poster

Uniform rules.

96 replies

lou33 · 07/10/2004 14:34

I just wanted to get a few opinions from parents and teachers on this.

Dd1 is year 8, and the school has issued every pupil with a letter about school uniform, which I have had to sign and return, saying i have seen it.

It states that uniform has become a serious issue, with some pupils refusing to look smart and conform (I haven't seen anything too jawdropping myself, just usual older kids trying to look cool), so from last monday the head (newly appointed) has insisted (their wording) on four rules.

These are, ties to be worn at an appropriate length and done up, shirts to be tucked in, school jumpers or sweatshirts to be worn at all times inside the school unless given premission in class by a teacher to remove it, but it has top be put on at the end of the lesson to go to the next class, and no trainers except for pe, or with a medical letter from a gp. Black shoes only.

The letter then goes on to say tha tany child who does not conform will have parents contacted to be sent home to get properly dressed before they can go back into lessons, and if this is not possible, then they will be excluded from lessons, isolated for the day and supervised by a teacher.

I just think the punishment is extreme for the crime iyswim. It seems ridiculous to exclude someone for not wearing a jumper for example, and an awful lot of extra time given over to teachers who could be doing something more productive. I don't see sense in it, and to me it seems more about social control than educating pupils.

Am i missing the point?

Dd is not likely to get into trouble for any of these reasons btw, but for some reason this has been playing on my mind.

OP posts:
Hulababy · 07/10/2004 14:42

Both schools I have worked at have had the same rules and the same punishment. A child was expected to have a letter from a parents explaining any "wrong" uniformm.
At my current school - in special measures, etc. - it is not followed very well at all. At the other school all teachers kept to the rules and all pupils were expected to have a smart uniform at all times. And it did work. This school was a very good school.

I do think that if schools crack down onthe small things (like uniform) then the bigger issues are less likely to occur. Certainly from my experience teaching and from other teacher friends this seems to be the case.

Original poster
lou33 · 07/10/2004 14:48

Thanks Hula. I've never noticed any real uniform problems though tbh. It's also a beacon school, so it has good results. I just think being excluded for taking a jumper off if you are hot is a bit ott! I guess they would only do that after presistently trying to remove it though. I don't object to uniform rules as such. I set quite strict standards for dd anyway (loggerheads about skirt lengths etc).

Visions of pupil teacher kerfuffles involving pupil taking an arm out, teacher trying to put it back in......

OP posts:
SueW · 07/10/2004 14:48

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

Original poster
lou33 · 07/10/2004 14:50

It's not the rules it's the punishments that other me more.

Maybe my rebellious streak is coming out. Seeing the words "insisting" and "conform" coming form a school instantly make we want to do the opposite (don't tell dd though). Ask Spacemonkey what I was like!

OP posts:
Original poster
lou33 · 07/10/2004 14:50

bother, not other...

OP posts:
Original poster
lou33 · 07/10/2004 14:51

from not form [rolling eyes icon]

OP posts:
Hulababy · 07/10/2004 14:51

You may find Lou, that it is just that "significant minority" that break the rules, and that it is to pick up on these. I wouldn't worry about it too much as it is only normally in very extreme, persistant rule breaking that tough measures actually got taken up.

The first school I worked at - the really good one - was also a beacon school and top of the league tables. But it had the rule and kept to it the most I have ever seen, having regular uniform checks. I am still convinced that it is this picking up on small rules than can make and break a school.

hercules · 07/10/2004 14:51

Same policy in my school and I agree with Hulababy about why it's a good idea. That said it is a pain to enforce and does take up lesson time.

MeanBean · 07/10/2004 14:54

My school was very lackadaisical about school uniform, and was one of the best in the area as regards O and A level results. Ex grammar and all that.

I think it's ridiculous. If it's warm, then people should be allowed to remove jumpers and I don't see why they need permission. Like any rules, they have to be seen to be reasonable and fair, otherwise people lose respect for them.

As regards trainers, it discriminates against parents who can only afford one pair of shoes (they do exist) and would like that pair to be practical for everyday use.

Original poster
lou33 · 07/10/2004 14:54

They don't mention anything about skirt lengths though, which i find odd.

OP posts:
MeanBean · 07/10/2004 14:56

Uniforms should be practical. Some skirt lengths certainly aren't.

Original poster
lou33 · 07/10/2004 14:57

I agree with you as well meanbean, and everyone else! That's why I though I would post about it. The jumper thing is the bit that is really getting to me. You would think I should have bigger things to worry about, but it is giving me a welcome distraction from those issues!

I'm a bit hacked off with the school anyway, as they still haven't replied to a letter i sent them in july about dd getting sunburnt. Must get back to them about it actually...

OP posts:
Original poster
lou33 · 07/10/2004 14:58

Crossposted. Yes that's what I mean. They have put a rule in about not taking your jumper off, but nothing about wandering about in v short or v long skirts. Doesn't make sense to me.

OP posts:
Hulababy · 07/10/2004 14:59

Yes, skirt length should be an issue, but it so rarely is on there. My last school had skirts only for girls, but some of the skirt were so short they were indecent. I know that some of the male teachers felt quite uncomfortable at times when taking Y7 and 8 assemblies. The pupils sat on the floor crossed legged int he hall, and short skirts just meant that the teacher running assembly was faced with half the girls knickers on show.

SueW · 07/10/2004 15:00

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at OP's request.

Hulababy · 07/10/2004 15:01

I thinkI disagree about the trainer issue. Most trainers aren't really appropraite for school wear - labs, technology rooms, etc. And they are not smart. IMO uniform should be smart. And you can definielty get shoes cheaper than the type of trainers the kids at my school go around in! I don't think uniform issues has much to do about money in many cases, sorry. A basic uniform is normally much cheaper than half the things our pupils try and get away with. It's more to do with fahion I think.

Hulababy · 07/10/2004 15:03

Our school rule on jumpers is that a blazer must always be warned, but jumpers are optional. I always allow pupils to take blazers off in class - my computer room is a furnace all year round. I tell pupils this at the start of the year.

The uniform rules are loosened in the summer, with jumpers and blazers both becoming optional.

But I do wish pupils would wear ties PROPERLY!!!

Original poster
lou33 · 07/10/2004 15:08

Before the new head arrived there was a tie rule in place, which meant pupils had ot have at least 6 stripes of the tie showing fully, so noone walked around thiking they looked col but actually looked like a twat. I don't mind that one. Or skirt lengths. I'm obssessing over the jumper issue and the wording.

OP posts:
MeanBean · 07/10/2004 17:53

I think ties are completely stupid, especially for girls. At least boys have situations in real life outside school where they might actually wear a tie, but unless you're Britney Spears, you will almost never wear a tie as a grown up woman. How did that particular impractical piece of uniform evolve, I wonder?

Marina · 07/10/2004 18:09

I agree that the jumper rule is worth querying with the School, Lou. Metabolic rates in humans vary enormously, so what is pleasantly warm for some children might be intolerably hot for others. And surely there are going to be medical conditions that might be affected by the obligatory wearing of a (usually synthetic fibre) jumper over a (usually polycotton) shirt...
Generally I am in favour of uniform right down to shoes, because it removes to a large extent the bickering about whose trainers are best.

hmb · 07/10/2004 18:10

If there is a uniform then the students should conform to it. I work in a school with a strict uniform. A very short distance (same catchment area) there is a school with a relaxed uniform policy. So why should children in my school be allowed to get away with not dressing to the uniform? They knew what it was when they applied ffs! If they didn't loke it, why not go to the othr school!

At the moment we are having to battle girls wearing pink cardicans (because I'm cold miss) while simutaneously not wearing the school blazer.

Today I had to insist that a girl wore eye protection while using acid in the class, how about we let that rule go?

If you let a single rule go, they push at something else. And if parents don't back the school up it gets even worse.

Kind of like you you told a toddler they couldn't have a sweet and then your dh went and gave them one, wouldn't that give a mixed message? If you don't like the uniform, don't send them to that school.

MTS · 07/10/2004 18:19

i agree with you lou - that if pupils aren't comfortable in jumpers/blazers, and prefer just to wear the uniform shirt, then why is that a problem (of course that doesn't mean they should wear their own pink cardies instead!)

hmb · 07/10/2004 18:23

Beacuse they wil then not wear the Blazer when outside the classroom, regardless of the cold. It isn't a case of heat or other wise , they just don't want to conform. They are just the same in the summer when they are exempted the blazer.

then they will not tuck in their shirt, then they will not wear the tie. If you have a uniform the kids should stick to it. It isn't as if they are being asked to wear a diving helmet ffs. We have to wear formal clothes.

MeanBean · 07/10/2004 18:24

But you know that life isn't that easy HMB. If the uniform is the only thing you don't like about the school, and you don't like anything else about the other schools, then you're not going to send your kids to the other schools. And as a stakeholder in the school, parents have a right to lobby for change if they don't like one aspect of it.

I also think that my point about rules being seen to be reasonable so that everyone respects them, stands. The danger of having mad rules, is that people don't differentiate between the sane and the mad ones. That's why there should only ever be sane ones - so they should all be followed.

Bet you got loads of work done in the last couple of weeks, haven't you?!

hmb · 07/10/2004 18:30

Yes, you have a right to lobby for change but if you undermine the staff and their rules I would prefer that you take your child somewhere where the rules suit you.

By all means go to the governers, PTA and change the rule, but please don't undermine the staff while you are doing it.

I was told to Fuck off by a child today. Am I supposed to take that if the parent feels that swearing is OK? And I can assure you that many of them do.

And what about homework? Don't want your kids to do it, undermine the staff again.

And them wonder why we end up with schools out of control.

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