Are state schools allowed to profit from extracurricular trips/holidays?

[origamiwarrior]

DD (along with rest of year) has been invited on a European skiing trip during the Easter holidays. Places are limited and there will be a ballot if too many apply. The trip is being supplied by a third-party provider who arranges everything - accommodation, coach travel, ski passes, tuition, insurance, etc.

I went to the provider's website last night (to see if they were registered with childcare vouchers, as we have a glut to use up) and came across the schools' brochure and price list. The provider charges the school £540 per pupil, and the school are charging £1020. The £540 includes free staff places, and in fact there are further discounts for volume (not sure if this applies as I dont know how many kids are going). The 'what is included' is identical, copied and pasted from the provider's website (down to the free souvineer t-shirt) so I know it is the same holiday.

Are the school allowed to profit like this? I know they can't for normal school trips, but I don't know if the rules are different for what is clearly an opt-in 'holiday'.

Oops. etlux. It did confuse me as a reply.

Phineyj
I wouldn't expect staff to know all the details, but I always find it a bit confusing when teachers on here make inaccurate claims about PP funding without considering that how their school uses it is different to how others can use it, for example. Same for claims about ringfenced money etc. It's frustrating from people out of the sector without misinformation from people in schools perpetuating myths.

I don't think the OP was wrong to ask the question, but the overall tone seemed very much to be from a position assuming school were trying to screw money out of parents which isn't pleasant.

its in the Easter holidays, so while they would need to pay the teachers attending....

Bless your innocence.

its in the Easter holidays, so while they would need to pay the teachers attending....

Because otherwise you won't have any teachers attending presumably! You wouldn't be able to pay me enough to take this on if I was a teacher.

Because otherwise you won't have any teachers attending presumably! You wouldn't be able to pay me enough to take this on if I was a teacher
Staff routinely staff trips without pay.
They wouldn't happen otherwise.

Same for weekend camp, sports tournaments on weekends, concerts and productions and so on.

School trips are hard work, but often enjoyable. I look back at the opportunities I had with school and want to offer the same to my students. Some schools will have a food allowance for staff so we aren't out of pocket for going on residential.

There's a lot in education that runs on goodwill that people don't see.

I would check that the prices advertised on the website is genuine first

Having organised school trips, my experience tells me that the published pics on the website (such as NST etc) are never the quotes you finally end up with. They always publish their lowest prices, but that is based on very specific criteria and when you try to book, in fact it is nowhere near that published price!

One I've had.... you have more children going than the published price, so that means you can no longer stay in the budget accommodation, so they have to put you in different accommodation etc but that massively pushes the price up.

Or, you live further away from the port than the example price, so this means you can no longer get the super cheap ferry. You now have to use the more expensive one (had that too).

Organising school trips is bloody hard work and infuriating!!

Oh yeah, and I've never been paid to go in a school trip... even one that goes in my Easter hols. I consider this fair as I don't actually pay to go... so I'm happy to go without pay, knowing that at least I'm not paying for the trip. This works out cheaper for the students too.

I've never known a teacher to be paid for running a school trip.

Oh and when we have overcharged (for contingencies etc) we have refunded any excess afterwards.

If it's not actually a skiing holiday then is it snowboarding? Lessons alone per person for a week will be well in the region of €100-€200. Boot/board hire€80? And lift pass €250 for 6 days.
I can't possibly see how a trip would be so cheap

I’m thinking it’s a watersports trip from a well known provider (canoeing in the Ardeche etc.). If it is, I have been part of organising this trip since 2007. I can guarantee that the final official quote to the school will not be the one advertised on the website. It never is, sadly, and has never been as low as £500 odd pounds. The timings of the coach journey always vary widely and even though we do an overnighter, a difference of an hour or two hikes up the price.
The delay in replying could be because many staff may well be involved and busy and may take time to organise the reply to you. Hopefully you get one soon but please don’t think the school profits.

Parents are often surprised at the cost of school trips and say they could do a family trip much cheaper per head.

This might be true, but what they forget is what pushes up the costs - that on a school trip, any activity for insurance, safeguarding and safety purposes needs a level of qualified supervision (which costs) that you wouldn't provide for your own family. So, for example, on a family holiday you might ski or have water sports tuition for 2 hours per day and then spend the rest as a family doing an acitivities that didn't need qualified tuition....but on a school trip, all time in an activity will need the qualified people. You need to keep the kids active and not bored all the time and to fill up the day (which costs) in a way you do t need to with a family. Add in the profit that the travel company has to make, including their expensive insurance for covering kids which has to include absolutely everything to be on the safe side and mean schools can take other people's kids away with confidence that they won't be found negligent, all adds to the price. When you ask someone else to take your child away, you put a massive responsibility on them, and simply covering that in insurance costs money.

And yes to the base price on a website being the absolute minimum that hardly anyone will actually pay - including the worst flights or crossing times, absolute minimum of activities and excluding lots of essentials that schools will have no choice but to add on. Those base prices are there to lure schools into thinking they can run a trip and offer it much more cheaply than they can - to get them to enquire and launch a conversation and quote with the travel company, which they will then follow through with, even though the end price is substantially more than the starting point. It's simply business for the travel companies....but the fact parents can go on and see the base price often causes a sense that schools are ripping them off.

The other thing parents sometimes compare to, apart from a per head family price, is something like a scout or guide trip run y volunteers and based on accommodation or resources which are offered at massively subsidised prices. Scouts and guides might have qualified people who offer the coaching for free and who can use camp sites or accommodation at knock down prices - they are brilliant opportunities for kids to do activities at bargain prices, but rely on stuff schools just don't have, so their prices aren't a fair comparison.

In the end, skiing, water sports, outdoor activities which require expert, qualified tuition and foreign travel won't be cheap. They won't be affordable for everyone as they are essentially luxury products. Sometimes people forget that. Whether schools should offer luxury products that not all can afford or not is a different issue. Some say that only stuff everyone can do should ever be offered.....that would mean a very minimalist offering but would mean everyone had the same very limited opportunities. Most schools decide they do want to offer more than that because of the benefits the activities offer, but accept that not everyone will be able to go. The unfairness of income and wealth inequality extend throughout all aspects of society and schools aren't really in a position to fully eradicate them and level the playing field, although they do achieve this is many ways and to some extent. Fully levelling the playing field in terms of opportunity is simply a gargantuan task which is well beyond what individual schools have the ability to deliver, with the the best will in the world.

That is a very thoughtful and informative response, @WombatChocolate. A*

bettyboo40 £180 per day for a supply teacher?!

@Aquilla that's a cheap one and in London that's more the price of an agency TA. Teachers here are normally above £200 for a qualified teacher from an agency.

School will have a best value policy and there should be some comparisons of cost outside L.A. Providers. You may wish to ask what other options were considered and how they decided this offered the best options educationally, pastorally and price wise.