Are state schools allowed to profit from extracurricular trips/holidays?

[origamiwarrior]

DD (along with rest of year) has been invited on a European skiing trip during the Easter holidays. Places are limited and there will be a ballot if too many apply. The trip is being supplied by a third-party provider who arranges everything - accommodation, coach travel, ski passes, tuition, insurance, etc.

I went to the provider's website last night (to see if they were registered with childcare vouchers, as we have a glut to use up) and came across the schools' brochure and price list. The provider charges the school £540 per pupil, and the school are charging £1020. The £540 includes free staff places, and in fact there are further discounts for volume (not sure if this applies as I dont know how many kids are going). The 'what is included' is identical, copied and pasted from the provider's website (down to the free souvineer t-shirt) so I know it is the same holiday.

Are the school allowed to profit like this? I know they can't for normal school trips, but I don't know if the rules are different for what is clearly an opt-in 'holiday'.

Travel, supply costs for teachers (teachers will most likely not be oaid any time in lieu).

What about meals?

Are you sure that the price on the website does not increase if the trip is organised on certain dates ?

Meals included. Like I said, it's exactly the same spec, all inclusive, down to instructor gratuities and souvineer t-shirt.

As suggested above, it must be the additional staffing/admin costs to the school which eat up the £15k + 'profit' (assuming 30 kids on trip).

Just that 540/ week sounds like the not during local school holidays
price.

Yes, price is for those exact dates

I think you are missing or misunderstanding the costs involved. Schools scrape and negotiate hard to get the price for students as low as they possibly can. I repeat, they do not PROFIT from extra curricular trips and activities. I don't know what exactly you are misunderstanding but you clearly are. If it's such a bargain why don't you book the separately through the website and take yourself. Or put your money where your mouth is and embarrass yourself ask the organiser?

Hullo!

1. The way finances work, and they have to be official, no school would be able to justify profiting from a school trip. It would be dodgy as hell. So, no, the school isn’t going to be scamming you out of money. If it’s a big secondary school then it’s even less likely because there are allocated pots of money for different departments so it would be a nightmare trying to decide where the money even went. Trust me: five years ago I had my department with an exam board which required pristine, clean exam texts for all GCSE students. Now they’re not allowed texts at all so this year i’ve sold those books to students, thus meaning my department is in profit. Finance have gone mental.
2. Arf at the money going to pay teachers’ salaries!

• there will be an ‘emergency’ pot of money and it will be substantial. I would probably want at least £500 in case of something big. That’s back-up though
• I would be paying teachers’ food too.
• school will need extra insurance
• £500 is suspiciously cheap for a ski trip.

The provider charges £540 to the school. The school charges £1020 to the parents. I haven't made any comment on whether the holiday is expensive or cheap per se, just that the mark up seemed high, but some helpful people have pointed out that there are other costs to the school (teacher/staff salaries - especially given it is school holidays - admin) that may account for this. But I would still like to know whether, in the unlikely event the school replies to say they do intentionally make a profit on this holiday, whether that goes against some code or another, or whether (given it's an entirely optional 'fun' holiday) it's fair game. Anyone know definitively?

How many teacher places per children booked does the website offer? For example you might have 1 free place per 15 bookings, but the school's insurance says they need 1 adult per 8 children for overseas trips. How much is each separate staffing place according to the website and what are the school's staffing ratios?

Ask the school & let us know what they say, OP.

Am pretty sure public sector bodies/institutions are not able to make a profit. Fundraising as a registered charity is obviously different, but profiteering, no. Although not a school, I offered to donate some £ to my local library as their policy is not to charge for overdue children's books, but they are prohibited from accepting £ as a publicly funded body.

There will also be activities in the evenings... we went to a paid for Christmas markets, bowling, laser quest, we went out to a pizza restaurant and to the cinema (it was in the US). That would have cost about £120 pp! They don't just stay in after skiing!

Chattybum Please believe when I say it is exactly the same spec. I am not misunderstanding the holiday! The letter from school says "Easter holiday, provided by XYZ Activities, at a fully-inclusive price of £1020 covering activities, coach travel, full board, accomodation in bunked rooms, travel insurance, souvineer t-shirt, gratuities to instructors".

XYZ Activities' schools' website says ""Easter holiday, at a fully-inclusive price to school of £540 per pupil covering activities, coach travel, full board, accommodation in bunked rooms, travel insurance, souvineer t-shirt, gratuities to instructors". It goes on to say the price includes free teacher places, and gives the percentage discount for each increase in pupil numbers above 30.

My DD is signed up for the trip. I am happy to pay £1020 for it. As I stated in my OP I have already asked the organiser. No response as yet.

I was posting on Mumsnet to ask whether schools are definitively not allowed to profit from school trips.

They will definitely not make a profit. My school does take extra for contingencys. If they come back with any they have refunded money back to parents. They also have probably not replied yet so they can provide you with a break down of costs. Or they have rolled their eyes and thought here we go... 🙄 (no offence!!) I'm a teacher and find that everything is questioned. I do think that you deserve a response as I would also want to know why there is such a huge mark up but there are ridiculous costs involved in school trips. We always use our own insurance aswell as the trips insurance. Next year we are taking 140 kids to france and we are taking 4 extra staff members (than what's included in the cost per child) due to the fact we have SEN kids and they will need a smaller adult ratio - again we dont have to do this but we want maximum safety for the kids. In the past when we have flown to America to go skiing we have given them £20 each in the airport for food/spends. If you do find out I would be interested to see what they reply.

We've had to pay extra in the past due to a student with disabilities as an accessible coach cost more (plus 2 TAs). Also you'll have 2 drivers to feed and house. Extra activities/visits on top, especially in the evenings. We always have contingency money in case of emergency- a very costly trip to an American doctor was one example, and extra insurance.

You are obviously right, maybe you should offer to organise future trips.

Speaking from several decades of school trip organising, we are just begging out for someone to show us how to do it properly.

In answer to your question it really depends on what kind of accounts the school has and whether it is an academy, community or voluntary aided school. Academy and voluntary aided- yes they can make profit. A community school could potentially make it profitable if they fed it through their PTA account. In general though, schools work really hard to make these trips as affordable as possible and if they do make any profit, it is only for the benefit of the students eg extra goodies, extra evening activities not included in the trip, or for the deposit of the next year's trip but this one is rare. Funds cannot go to teacher salaries as they're on strict pay scales. The only time a teacher would get additional money without moving pay scales is if they got a substantial increase in responsibility eg head of department than they would get a nominal increase but it is peanuts.

As a state school teacher and organiser of many trips:

1. We are not allowed to profit in any way and the school finance department monitor this very carefully and are externally audited
2. Supply teacher costs are not included in the price of your trip
3. Teachers additional pay is not included in the price of your trip, we receive no additional payment for our extra time spent on the visit
4. Teachers places are cost covered by the trip company and included in the overall student price. We don't set the amount up for this and bill the parents, the trip company do.
5. The price on the company website is never the price charged. There are a million add ons, insurance, meals, rooming, travel from different airport/ ferry port, additional coaches
6. In the unlikely event there is ever a small surplus (ie under £100) then we MUST spend that money on students on the visit so we have done things like a group ice cream or McDonald's treat

I think it is a very reasonable question as most people don't know the back end of school trip financing and I would raise a few eyebrows myself if I saw that for the first time. So I don't think some of these responses are warranted really.

You keep saying free teacher places. HOW MANY! This is not a difficult question since you seem to have all the info. I ask because the teacher places will be significantly more than child places and the price of these places will have to be made up in extra child costs. Schools insurance policy (not the travel companies) dictate the ratios so although there may be free places, they will probably not meet the minimum required amount of places. And also additional costs other have mentioned need to be factored. I'm irritated because I'm a teacher. I have organised many trips. They are a bureaucratic nightmare to organise, a totally unnecessary headache I would rather avoid, that relies on teachers being willing to give up their free time, unpaid, to take other kids on holidays they will remember forever. And I find your suspicion about profiteering frankly insulting on behalf of the profession.

@Springb0ks yes I forgot to add- in my experience catalog price has NEVER been the same and is often substantially more expensive. They often quote it thinking your school is 5 mins down the road from the Dover ferry port. In previous years our school has also been forced to share a coach with another school as we didn't fill it up and they expected us to cover the empty seats even though we were only 9 short.

There is a DfE paper on charging for school trips which makes it very clear what schools can charge for (just google it). With trips in school time, they can only actually charge for board and lodging, and ask for voluntary contributions for activity costs, and they can't add things like supply cover onto the cost. I don't know what it says about trips in school holidays - take a look and let us know! But I'd be very surprised if they made a profit. My brother works at a private school, and even they are careful not to make an actual profit. Their contingency fund is always spent on a treat for the kids if there's any money left, as otherwise they would need to refund it to parents (which is a pain in the arse for the finance people).

Thanks cookiedough and poseysbobblehat, it doesn't specify the ratio for free teacher places (though the % discount for 90 kids includes an allowance for 9 free teacher spaces, so it might be 1 in 10, for smaller groups too?), so that could explain the increase, as well as taking out additional insurance and contingency.

Its a voluntary-aided school.

Some very helpful recent posts from dodgeitornot and springb0k - thank you.

I think my question is answered.

Not sure I'll be asking anything else on Mumsnet in a hurry. Some of you are fierce!

Oh, ok, I've had a look for you . The answer is crystal clear: no, they can't make a profit. See extract below:

Q. Can a school charge for an activity that takes place out of school hours?
A. This kind of activity is often referred to as an 'optional extra'. Where an optional extra is being provided, a charge can be made for providing materials, books, instruments, or equipment. See advice on optional extras on page 4.
The actual charge for the optional extra cannot exceed the actual cost of the provision. Schools cannot and must not make a profit from charging for optional extras.