St Catherines Bramley

[Frequentdriver]

I notice a number of old threads on choosing girls schoolas around Guildford so I thought this post might help anyone deciding on girls' schools in the area at the moment. (New thread)
I have had girls at St Catherine's for almost 10 years, through Prep, Senior and 6th form. The Prep school is strong, well run and the culture is open and honest. The head is a genuine and is proactive in ensuring children are treated as individuals. However this is not the case across the road at the Senior school. The cuture there is very different. It was once described to me as " a bit draconian" which I now realise is the least of its problems. It does have some excellent teachers but sadly they are in the minority. They have too many staff members who struggle with the quality of their teaching and their behaviour in class. Over the years my children have been shouted at, called names (yes really) and when parents take the trouble to complain about a teacher ( and there are many, many instances of complaints) the policy is for the teacher to deny all. Any request to bring in other pupils as witnesses is denied. Any escalation to senior management literally takes weeks and your daughter will be quizzed over and over again to the point where they realise any complaint is not worth it and they begin to fear retribution from the teacher in question. This intimidating approach to processes is particularly true of their bullying policy. They adopt a "no-blame" policy- which initially sounds great (and probably is if you child is the bully in question) but essentially means that any complaint by a child of bullying means that child is "interviewed" at length, in class hours, to everyone's knowledge, causing more drama and pressure on an already victimised child. The bully gets to respond (but lying is obviously very common) , but I know of many cases where the outcome is "what can we do to address the sensitivity of the child who has lodged the complaint". By never acknowledging any blame lies with the bully, the victims stop complaining (or more likely eventually leave the school) and the school gets to claim they have very few instances of bullying. Trust me: bullying is very common. When over competitive girls find themselves in an environment where the teachers get away with lying and covering their tracks, and the girls can intimidate and bully with no real threat of consequences, bullying is bound to be a problem. Sadly this culture has got worse over the last 5 years I would say, not helped by a head that refuses to hear this message from concerned parents. I know parents from almost every year with these issues, and many that have just moved their girls out- its ultimately all you can do when you hit trouble. It is hugely unfortunate as some teachers are truly dedicated and the girls love them and the facilities are undoubtedly outstanding. However unless pupils can be protected from the individuals who bully and intimidate (both girls and staff) I could not recommend this school to anyone. Things are not so bad (for us at least) that I have had to move my children out-although we have come close, but they will be leaving before 6th form to places that value individualism as well as kindness.

We’ve had bullying issues at St Catherine’s Prep which were not well handled by staff. From chatting to other parents we are not alone. We changed schools and much happier now.

stumbled across this old thread as looking at moving out of SW London and so need to move DD who is currently in y7 at a very good london day school. Really thought st cats was a good option so am genuinely perplexed. want somewhere reasonably academic but not top 10, kind and supportive as she’d be joining at unusual
entry point. Space for Y8 is only a maybe anyway.

Tormead do have space but i was less keen, I thought it was less academic and facilities perhaps not as good. Is it considered on a par academically? The school she is at now bounces around from 20-50 in a level tables. Is Tormead the more chilled of the Guildford 3?

Tormead and St Cats are really quite different. St Cats has the country school feel with space and facilities however their reputation locally is taking a huge dive (for genuine and not so genuine reasons) their lockdown provision was terrible and they aren’t manage issues with the girls well at the moment. This year a number of girls were “wait listed” at Priorsfield and yet got offered places at St Cats and this will have an impact on their academics moving forward.

Tormead has historically been third choice. The campus is cramped and the only sport they really perform in is gymnastics. However, they new head is “one to watch” he is changing the ethos and approach across the board and I have heard very positive things. He is new though and so only time will tell as his changes haven’t had an opportunity to take effect.

Locally the three schools are compared a lot... GHS is obviously your ‘top 10’ style choice, which you have said that you’re not looking for. St Cats and Tormead have very similar academic credentials (in the grand scheme of things). With the former pulling ahead a bit (usually every year) on GCSE results. However, at A-Level the schools are pretty similar with the tables showing Tormead pretty close to StCats. They say the ‘value add’ at Tormead is better, given it takes a slightly wider cohort of academic abilities at 11+ then delivers the good results. They say the initial academic intake at Stcats is higher due to its reputation and delivers slightly better results, but as the PP indicated, this looks to be changing?

What is your DDs academic abilities like? BUT thinking ahead, as at this stage your only looking at a junior school, so remember you can still change any time, whilst they’re young.

I don’t ‘personally’ have any info on any of the schools from inside at the moment, but my sister has a daughter at TM in year 11 who is happy. She is also decided to stay on for sixth form, Tormead traditionally has a small sixth form (about 50?), but this year she says at least 60+ are staying on, which is a first, so maybe a good sign the school is doing things to retain smart girls.

@pico1234 i think the lady is looking for a year 8 place not JS?

The fact is these are different schools generally (location/feel/style), however, academically they are similar, with StCats ahead of the pack. So if you want better results - and your DD thinks she'll fit in - then StCats (according to the figures, only) is going to be a stronger option. Remembering lots of other stuff feeds into happiness and good results too!

All the Guildford area schools are outstanding players in the 'girls' school market place'. We are very lucky to have such an excellent choice of top places to send our daughters.

What is interesting to see though is that StCats is looking very odd this year in terms of offers. I know a (lovely) girl that has been waitlisted a place at Farnborough Hill and offered StCats. She has taken StCats, obviously! But this seemed backwards to me? To hear about Priors Field (above) too, is likewise, bizarre! Maybe they are having trouble working it out, in what to be fair, has been a very strange year. Although it could be a symptom of them having to scramble/cobble the assessment together after xmas?

Facilities wise - the St Cats ones are big, open, spaces. Relatively fresh and some new building work going on too with a sixth form boarding house. They have space on their side and the countryside to boot. However, that 'country' environment isn't for everyone, and depending on your location, neither can be the journey down there every morning/evening. Tormead on the other hand is like GHS, a landlocked city centre school, albeit in a quiet residential area. Both those schools seem to make the best of it though and have close links to the train/busses/town. But, you're right, they do not have the same space or greenery!

I have 2 very happy DDs at Tormead - both in the upper years of the school. We were delighted with the CAGs my daughter was allocated for her GCSEs last summer and she and her younger sister will be staying at Tormead for the sixth form. We have also been very impressed by David Boyd's start as Headmaster.

I've said this before on other threads but I will say it again, school league table positions can be heavily influenced by micro-managing pupils' subject choices. Some schools may block your DD from selecting or subsequently sitting specific GCSE or A Level subjects through the school if they are insufficiently confident of them achieving the highest grades in order to maintain their national league table ranking.

You may think that your interests as a parent and the school's will be aligned in this respect (ie you'll both want the highest grades achievable). However, this can have longer term ramifications for subsequent A level choices or degree subject applications. At what level should a school dictate what is a high enough predicted grade and steer a pupil's GCSE or A level choices? Is only a predicted 9 acceptable, an 8 or a 7 (all of which are, after all, still an old style A grade) or lower? Different schools draw this line in slightly different places.

Another tactic is requiring some pupils to sit the lower level GCSE maths papers. See historic thread here - no idea if this is still the case at St Cat's.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/secondary/3173645-St-Cats-Bramley-and-foundation-maths

Some girls at both St Cats and Tormead sit only 9 GCSEs rather than 10 (excluding Additional Maths). You may want to question both schools about the proportion of the cohort sitting 10 as this will feed into league table results.

In terms of sports facilities at Tormead, the school is still awaiting a planning decision on last year's application to upgrade the Urn Field Sports Ground (which it shares with Guildford County School). Details of this can be found here.

www2.guildford.gov.uk/publicaccess/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=makeComment&keyVal=_GUILD_DCAPR_190644

I agree that the two schools are very different in feel and it depends upon what you and your daughter want. I was very happy at my own London day school and so was more instantly drawn to the look and feel of Tormead. The girls come across as happy, down-to-earth and comfortable in their own skins. The fact that so many girls commute independently to school by train was a big plus for me. Also, the location means that older girls can pop into central Guildford at lunch time. St Cats is more of a country boarding school offering and others will select it precisely for this reason. I have friends with daughters there who are very happy (and they are very nice!). It really is a case of horses for courses.

Good luck with your research.

I experienced similar to Honestmother123. We made the decision to remove our daughter from St Cat’s. Pupils are shown how to achieve good grades. Kindness is considered a weakness by both staff and pupils. The bullying is nasty. Teachers and Housemistresses fully aware of issues but either too scared or not interested in taking control. The no-blame bullying policy is appalling but purposefully in place to protect the bully and silence the victim. That’s what you get for a £6,400 a term day girl.

@NonVellum i just saw this pop to the top of the thread list, as I’m actively waiting on responses to an enquiry I had about the reception class at St Catherine’s. Where does you experience come from, are you a parent or child and what year/how long have you been there? Hoping to decide about a reception place we’ve got for September, we’re very keen but seem to be hearing a lot of not so good stuff now. Bit disconcerting. Thanks in advance.

@JonesDrJones my experience is only of the senior school.

I will totally disagree with the “no blame” policy claim. I currently have my 3 daughters in the school. Bullying would always occur in this age of social media where children attempts to replicate what they read and watch online in real life. I was made aware of a bullying incident sometime ago and the HeadMistress, Mrs Philips was keen to get to the root cause of the incident. She didn’t dismissed it and neither was there any attempt to blame the victim.

And none of my girls have ever been made to feel inferior for not excelling in stuffs. Yes, emphasis is placed on academics but it is also mandatory that a girl takes part in an, at least, 3 extra curricular activities.

My children have never complained of a rude teacher, or maybe they are “lucky”? I always ask them if anybody, student or teacher ever make them feel bad and the response has always been “No”.

On the whole I found the Headmistress to be empathetic and tough, when they need to be. I
have been a witness to both.

If my 1st daughter, who was enrolled in 2017 had complaints I would never have enrolled the others.

I am not sure why my last post was deleted so will keep this one short and to the point.
St Cats only have 9 girls starting reception rather than the usual 2 classes, they put this down to people’s finances however that is not the case as other schools are not having the same problem.
Numerous girls have been taken out midway through term due to the attitude of the school.
They also have the lowest number of girls moving from the prep to the senior school than ever before.
It would also be worth enquiring as to why a large number of girls were suspended for 2 days for bullying, vaping etc and not expelled. We like most of the parents we speak to assume it’s because they cannot afford to lose the numbers.

@happychapess I imagine someone at the school is reporting your post, if you're commenting on the low numbers (exactly) in that class, they are likely to see it as commercially sensitive information. Everyone is allowed an opinion, which remains subjective, but sharing exact numbers is fact, and hard to deny, the school will see that as bad PR. I wouldnt bank on your post being there for much longer, lol. However I agree with the premise of your post, which is st.cats getting less attractive for certain entry points? Maybe, maybe not? I can draw some comparisons with others I know. For example a friend, for example, is sending DD to a local prep school with a now full reception, they're also on the waiting list for September for one of the other 'main three' girls' schools in the area for reception as a first choice... this school has a completely full class and she has been told is likely to open another class soon, if they get the right numbers. Theres also another prep close to me that is taking record numbers of boys into reception. Perhaps the more nurturing and smaller settings at good schools is more appealing to parents now? We're at st.cats senior school and dont really see any changes in numbers, but perhaps in the year of covid and difficult marketing conditions they haven't done well selling themselves. I know other local schools did better at the online learning etc, so maybe they did better with online admissions too? I would probably expect a return to normal as we come out of 2020/21 restrictions and the school is able to flaunt its biggest asset again.. the space and grounds it has.

@HappyChapess thats really interesting to hear, where did you get the actual numbers from? To go from two classes to 9 girls is a bit of a dive. It will certainly hit the bottom line a bit, with a spare teacher kicking around and not as many feeding into the rest of the juniors, post reception. It could all be a factor of the lockdown, I know a lot of schools have had a hard time making the best of it. I have to be really honest though, and we have DD1 at Tormead Juniors and DD2 joining, and when we were looking around schools for DD2, the Tormead online offering for prospective parents was brilliant, and that comes as a genuine, unbiased report. I say this because when we joined Tormead for DD1 the admissions stuff was pretty average/meh, and we picked it based on geography alone! I think this year has rewarded those who have been on their A-game, and schools that thought could reply on their reputation and the 'status quo' (unless we're taking top 10 inc. GHS!) have fallen foul. Perhaps Tormead and those other prep schools the PP mentioned went all out and St.Cats dropped the ball?

In the grand scheme of things though, with covid hopefully fading away, im sure operation normal will resume!

Apparently there is a real underlying problem of racism which the school is not dealing with. There were some children using the n word and videos flying round the school mocking the killing of George Floyd

Interesting thread, it does seem that in recent times the school's PR isn't quite what it was. What has happened in the last 18 months to have caused all of the bad press and MN moans and groans. I know MN isnt the be all and end all of opinion, however no news is usually good news and Cats seem to be popping up in conversation quite a but recently.

@HappyChapess, are you at the school or joining? Just wondering could your info be exaggerated, or is it first hand / reliable source. I only, respectfully ask, as to go from 2 classes to just 9 kids is terrible. What were they doing wrong do you think?

@jamrolypolly, the racism stuff is a v serious point to make. Is your DD at the school, is the info first hand? Why do you think these public complaints of bullying (see further up thread), racism and vaping etc. have all started occurring? If you are a parent, is this all new, or has it been going on for ages, but dealt with properly in the past?

Racism is a very serious concern. We used to have a DD at the school who is now at Uni but we have many good friends still at the school who we keep in touch with. The school used to be very good, but the Head has lost touch with how to deal with digital policies which are badly managed and out of control. Parents are hoping she will move on but every year she is still there.
Children are regularly being called n*** and ‘paki’ / ‘chink’ with a blind eye from the school, happily turned for very wealthy families, especially if they donate to the Heads pet project which is a new building. A recent incident where some girls spoke up against the racism, resulted in them being severely punished whilst the racist still remains at the school. Parents are concerned as to what lesson this is teaching the year group, who are in shock.

St Cats was disappointing over lockdown in that their offering wasn't great and the discount was poor. However saying all that, I have two girls in the prep school who love it there! They aren't especially bright but the teachers are kind and caring, noone is pushed too hard and the girls love going in every day. I have only seen lovely parents who look out for one another and as a working mum I've made some great friends there. The girls are taught to be kind and courteous and I've never seen anything other than that. Apart from the standard girly tiffs!

There are issues with the senior school and some racism even but my goodness its the parents of those girls that need to take a long hard look at themselves, not St Cats. And if you want to talk about pressure - again, look at lots of the parents.

@PeppaPig100 Unfortunately, there must be a lot of those "types of parents" at the school, as the issues, it is clear, are quite widespread and well known amongst the Guildford independent school scene... Perhaps therefore an underlying culture issue that needs addressing?

I hear (both personally anecdotally) the girls and parents from other schools talk about St.cats, but not in the light then once did, just a few years ago...

I am involved (in a sense that is relevant to this thread) in a local prep (and have been for 10+ years) we feed all the main girls' schools, etc., and send a good selection of our graduates to each of them every year. The talk amongst our previous/current parents, especially during recent/current admissions seasons, is no longer "We're definitely going for St.Cats" it has now bizarrely changed to "Not sure about St.Cats". Having been around the block for so long, this is all quite an oddity for me!

It's also worth noting that at our prep we have admitted more girls at the reception entry point this year, where we were the parent's choice alongside St.Cats, a place we would have traditionally lost to them. Im sure our prep is not unique in this, although we (i'm allowed some bias! ) did a sterling job during lockdown, with the largest fees discount that we could responsibly afford, etc. All things that won the hearts and minds of our community.

But, I'm really, genuinely, thrilled you have had a wonderful experience there and your girls with certainly thrive at St.Cats, like many thousands of girls have done over the years! Sadly the realities of the bullying, vaping, "racism", lockdown learning and like you say the minimal reduction in fees during that period, are the fundamentally real issues they need to address in order to turn PR back in their favour.

Perhaps my two pennies will help make a difference! Best wishes. .

Interesting discussion about St Cats and shame to hear it seems to be going in one direction
@PeppaPig100 - ‘Not sure about St Cats’ is justified and a good question to ask. Current parents of the school say the Headmistress of the Senior School who has been there for over 20 years is out of touch with modern life and rules like Big Brother
@LadyX – Really sorry to hear that you had to remove your child from the prep school after they failed to deal with the situation properly
@Non Vellum – Sorry to hear about the nasty situation which wasn’t dealt with properly by the senior school and you also had to remove your child. We have heard likewise from a number of parents who agree and say that the school often protects the bully / racists and silences the victim / those who speak out
@ Frequentdriver – interesting post (although you made the comment in 2019 it sounds like the culture still has not changed and is getting worse) “sadly this culture has got worse over the last 5 years I would say, not helped by a head that refuses to hear this message from concerned parents. I know parents from almost every year with these issues, and many that have just moved their girls out- its ultimately all you can do when you hit trouble”.

We have heard exactly the same from several friends who have just taken their DDs out of the school this year
@JonesDr Jones – if you have an offer from GHS or Tormead for your DD, sounds like it may be worth considering those

Have I gone mad, or have St.cats changed the name of the "Junior School" to a "Preparatory School"? Friend of mine was just banging on about it on the phone calling it a prep now, but alway thought they called it juniors?

No beef, just genuinely interested as to whether i've lost the plot or not!

@HappyChapess - the school has just increased the notice period if you wish to withdraw your daughter from school in U5 before entry to sixth form, so looks like retention is a big problem. Not really surprised considering all the issues and number of unhappy parents.

@LoveJubble, when do you have to give notice for sixth form leavers now? Has it moved by much?

I have a friend there and i'm not 100% sure she was aware. They were looking at moving their DD after GCSE, but said they have "some time yet to decide" ..... we were only chatting about it Sunday.

@LoveJubble lol, very interesting reaction to a problem! Don't address the core issue, just stop people escaping! haha. Sounds like my employer!

I actually bumped into a St.Cats Mum and Dad at another open day locally, recently, they were looking for a move for their DDs. They were year 7 I think though.