Cost of childcare and private school fees in London for 1 child

[Desiringonlychild]

Hello, DH and I just bought a 2 bed flat in London in an area with good state schools. We are planning to have 1 child and to send him or her to private school (perhaps). Just curious how much do the people who send 1 child to private school earn (not talking about eton/harrow; fees of £15k-18k per annum which is quite similar to childcare)? We are ok with staying in our flat if it means DC gets the best education.

Also what percentage of your income should you spend on school fees? Is 30% too much? Thanks.

I am responding – against my better judgement – because I think this is too important an issue, at the moment more than ever, to ignore, and this is a public, searchable, forum.

You can, however, convert to Judaism and follow the religion but you are not Jewish

To quote your original comment on this “you are a Jew rather than Jewish”. I could almost understand your position if you had said “you are a follower of Judaism” (though would probably still have disputed it) but to make a distinction between being “Jewish” and “a Jew” makes no sense. As I said earlier, they have exactly the same root.

In rejecting the right of a convert to describe themselves as Jewish you are essentially othering them, which goes against the ethos (to my knowledge) of all the mainstream religious authorities in this area. When a convert to Judaism joins the chain of people that leads back to Sinai, they are regarded as indistinguishable from those who are Jewish by descent, inheriting that history and culture and becoming themselves part of it.

There's a whole other argument in fact - not one I intend to have in detail here - about Jewish "ethnicity"; consider the Jewish communities of Ethiopia, China, India... Jews are a people not a single genetic group. Whilst there are genetic traits associated with particular groups (Tay Sachs in the Ashkenazi community, for example) genetic studies have found that there is not a "Jewish gene".

We are agreed I think that converting to Judaism does not change someone’s ethnicity. Your argument seems to be that the word “Jewish” can only be applied to people with ethnically semitic ancestry (pace the above, and even though, as I said before, converts have always been part of that ancestral chain, from Ruth onwards). I fundamentally disagree with this; Jewish identity is simultaneously cultural, ethnic and religious, and can be a combination of any of these or just one. Someone can identify strongly as a Jew and never set foot in a synagogue, or be a strictly observant member of their religious community yet not have Jewish ancestry. Both archetypes are “Jewish”, in different ways. To aver otherwise is invidious. These are not binary positions.

I think we both know where this argument leads. Again I ask that we can agree to disagree on this, and leave it there.

@Zinnia If you wish to leave it there then simply don't respond as I've said previously.

Someone can identify strongly as a Jew and never set foot in a synagogue

Someone becomes Jewish by their mother so yes, they could be Jewish by ethnicity and choose not to follow the religion.

Jewish identity is also commonly defined through ethnicityy^. Opinion polls have suggested that the majority of Jews see being Jewish as predominantly a matter of ancestry and culture, rather than religion.

I've quoted this already, this is about the Jewish community and how they view converts and identify Jewish. I don't care for your opinion on the matter unless you are Jewish.

Well, yes, obviously I am.

Opinion polls have suggested that the majority of Jews see being Jewish as predominantly a matter of ancestry and culture, rather than religion.

The citations on the Wikipedia page you link to lead to news reports on two different polls, and the one from which that quotation was taken refers to how people questioned saw their own Jewish identity with no mention of their attitudes to converts. The headline on the other cited report, indeed, is "POLL: MANY ISRAELIS SEE JEWISH IDENTITY AS BEING SELF-DEFINED"

The paragraph above the one you quoted (on the Who is a Jew? Wikipedia page, in the highly unlikely event that anyone other than the two of us is still reading this thread), reads as follows:

Orthodox Judaismm^ and Conservative Judaismm^ follow Jewish law (Halakhaa^), deeming a person to be Jewish if their motherr^ is Jewish or they underwent a halakhic conversionon*^ (my emphasis)

I'm not hugely into citing Wikipedia as a definitive source myself, but as I say this is the paragraph immediately before the one you quoted in your last post.

Loving the idea, by the way, of getting a single unified opinion on pretty much anything from the entire community! If nothing else this thread has surely demonstrated that

I don't know why this is such a prickly subject for you, I only weighed in originally as your comment seemed quite rude to the now long-gone OP (to whom one again I extend my apologies for this thread-killing tangent).

As I said before, I think this subject is too important not to challenge your assertions when I disagree with them (and again, I have never said conversion changes someone's ethnicity, but their religion and culture both can and do change).

Once again I hope we can leave it there in terms of this thread as it has left the education theme far, far behind now, but if you really do want to continue the argument feel free to PM me. I'm sure we can keep going on this until one of us gets bored logs off for Shabbat!

Loving the idea, by the way, of getting a single unified opinion on pretty much anything from the entire community!

I agree. I didn't say it was unified opinion but at least in my experience and from what I've read this is how the majority of Jewish people feel.
Probably goes back from oppression etc.
*
I don't know why this is such a prickly subject for you*

What makes you think it's a prickly subject for me?

Halacha states jewishness is passed by the mother.
From my experience and from what I've studied, most conservative and orthodox believe in this to be true.
And view converts differently.

Bold fail!

Clearly our experiences are very different, then...

I notice you've glossed over all the substantive points from my previous comment, aside from the throwaway line about the diversity of opinions within the community.

You have cited as evidence a Wikipedia page which literally states that Jewish status can be conferred either by birth or by conversion, yet again seem to be questioning the validity of that latter route. (Although you do seem at least to have backed down from your original distinction between being "Jewish" and "a Jew", which is where all this started.)

"Prickly" was a poor choice of word on my part, so apologies for that. You do seem very exercised about the subject though (as, from this exchange at least, I appreciate, do I!).

Since you refer to (lower case) "conservative and orthodox communities" specifically, I quote from the United Synagogue website's page on conversion: "Once a person is converted, he [sic] is considered fully Jewish in every respect".

Anyway as we seem to be skirting around the real issue, perhaps you could simply answer this: do you recognise halachic conversions as conferring membership of the Jewish community?

@Zinnia just wanted to say I have been admiring the eloquence of your replies on this thread

@Zinnia
I haven't glossed over everything. I read the post and just came to the conclusion that we both have experienced differing opinions on the matter.

do you recognise halachic conversions as conferring membership of the Jewish community?

I believe there are differences in Jewish and converted Jews, so it's difficult to answer.

Oh OP, bless you, this is one of the most kiasu posts I've read on Mumsnet!

I know that area quite well and think you have done your sums well. Remember that all schools but particularly private ones have crazy long holidays. We base our budget on 4 terms of fees because we spend so much money during the summer holidays on school holiday camps / flights to relatives' / nanny etc (two working parents and 3 kids in private education). Also, in my experience, fees are going up faster than our (professional) salaries are

I would send my child to the best state school in the area and then get a private tutor for whatever subject they might be struggling with. Save all that money and give them as a house deposit or pay for their university fees if they decide to go. Also remember that some people who end up going private schools will have nothing to show for it.

@XelaM thank you for saying that

@Bluelightdistrict You've made yourself very clear there. I have nothing further to add.

@Desiringonlychild Sorry again for derailing this thread so spectacularly! I hope it hasn't offended/upset you in any way.

@Zinnia the reason why I stayed I am a convert is because it's kinda automatic for me. I am originally Singaporean-Chinese and I do not come across as stereotypically Jewish. Being Jewish is an ethnicity but also you can convert but it is not common to convert. Jews do not prosleytize and often if you do an orthodox conversion, you can take up to seven years to do it. There are converts from all sorts of backgrounds though; there are black Jews and Chinese Jews (aka battle hymn of the tiger mum Amy Chua married a Jewish guy and her Eurasian children were raised Jewish as reform Judaism recognizes patrilineal descent). Connie Chung is also a convert. The most famous convert is Ivanka trump.

Also in the UK there are different streams of Judaism in the UK (reform, liberal, orthodox and masorti). The majority is orthodox i.e. the chief rabbi and they do not recognize liberal or reform or masorti conversions like my conversion. Hence while I might be able to get my child to schools like jfs (orthodox Jewish but have been forced by the courts to accept the children of non orthodox converts) and jcoss, I probably would not be able to get my child into more religious schools like hasmonean which require a letter of reference from an orthodox rabbi that you practice the religion to the extent that no non orthodox Jew would typically do..

@Desiringonlychild That's really interesting OP. Thanks for sharing.
Especially being Singaporeon-Chinese.

Hence while I might be able to get my child to schools like jfs
I think this is the school which I found the article on.

All very interesting.

Also one big reason why I would spend on education is because I would not be giving a penny to my child for their house purchase or wedding. I would be ok with my child staying with me rent free to save up for a house. My dad offered to buy me a house in London but we bought our own flat instead with our own savings.

I think the bank of mom and dad is hardly inculcating the correct values. What incentive do you have to work if you know that mummy and daddy are going to help you with the deposit.apparently 60% of second steppers get help from their parents; how embarrassing must it be to get help from your aged parents at 45?! I know people who are 55 who are still getting help from their parents and the problem is that the handouts began at 22 and hence it never stopped.

It's a duty to educate your child so I don't think it spoiling your child to send your child to a top achieving private school, if anything, the child has to work hard in that school. So I therefore would not worry about saving money for my child to get a housing deposit.