School threatens to not refund trip money

[bizzy1234]

My Dd has a very expensive year 11 trip to South Africa for a sports tour after her GCSEs.
Aside from being incredibly proud of herself to have been invited into the team she has never missed training or matches.
She has worked hard for about 18 months babysitting and washing cars to pay for half of it.
Unfortunately she has had 2 detention this year.. both minor offences such as using her phone in break.
She is a good kid and works hard.
The school have sent me a standard letter saying if she gets a third detention she will be disqualified from the sports trip and we will not be refunded.
Is this legal for them to a remove a child from a sports trip who apart from petty offences (she's had glowing reports).
NB it's a new deputy head who is handing out detentions like toffees!

Sounds like a high risk trip. Maybe they've put this in their risk assessment.

Langrish

Yes! My eldest is 24 and working in an international recruiting company - had a weekend job at 15.

People mess up - especially kids.

The school have no right to act as a travel agent then confiscate the holiday for minor issues.

Surely the school can impose whatever conditions they like (as long as they inform everyone at the outset) and then parents choose whether to agree to the trip or not? If you don't agree to the conditions you don't book the trip.

The school appears to acting as a travel agent and failing to provide the travel
No, the school is acting as a school.
They are well within their rights to state that students behaviour may result in them losing their place.
If the student can't be replaced, then yes you lose the money. This is fairly standard. Schools aren't exactly rolling in finances...

I imagine they wouldn't actually remove a child for 3 detentions if they are otherwise well behaved, but they're managing the risk of someone potentially difficult causing issues on the trip (which on an international trip, could be a total disaster/dangerous).

itsAlmostsummer “It you get caught with a phone or forget your homework too bad, you knew there would be consequences”
Yes, a detention.
Refusing to take them in a trip they have paid thousands for us disproportionate. I hope next time you get a parking ticket you get banned from driving. After all, if you can’t follow the rules....

Likewise Langrish .

Adults mess up sometimes. Competent, intelligent good citizen adults.

And your kids have got jobs - so what? Have they and you never simply forgotten something just because you have a job?

So every kid in school gets a detention for forgetting a book, except those who have worked hard to earn money for a trip, got picked for the trip and whose parents have shelled out ££££s. Those kids get a detention AND the equivalent of a thousand pound fine.

Nasty Nasty pursed lipped punitive sanctimoniousness going on on this thread.

I work with teens. Believe me the ones with two or three incidents of forgetting a book or using a phone in the playground are not the ones I worry about going in activities with. It is unnecessary wielding of power.

As she was signed up for the trip before the rule change/staff change that increased number of detentions it's fair to say she wasn't fully informed at the outset.

“I imagine they wouldn't actually remove a child for 3 detentions if they are otherwise well behaved, but they're managing the risk of someone potentially difficult causing issues on the trip (which on an international trip, could be a total disaster/dangerous).”

This makes sense.

And the OP did say it was a standard form letter.

TheRedBarrows

Surely then the students make sure that they don't get detentions so that they can go on the trip?

Getting your phone out isn't an accident is it? You make a conscious decision to flout the rules.

As she was signed up for the trip before the rule change/staff change that increased number of detentions it's fair to say she wasn't fully informed at the outset.

The rule might always have been 3 detentions and no trip but the new DH has been stricter about giving detentions for rule breaking.

So the rules have always been there but they are now being enforced.

Getting your phone out isn't an accident is it? You make a conscious decision to flout the rules.
From what OP says it wasn't getting the phone out so much as failing to put it away 5 minutes before the bell rang. Which she didn't even know was the rule the first time. Allegedly.

Decomposing that's my point. If it was initially 3 detentions and detentions were only awarded for swearing at teachers then child could sign up in good faith. Then discover detentions are now awarded for picking your nose or buttons coming undone, when if that has been the rule at the start they wouldn't have hazarded such a large amount of money because they couldn't be sure of not making small mistakes. Just speculating really.

Realistically the school isn't going to want the hassle of taking anyone off and dealing with the no refund situation unless they have serious concerns about behaviour.

"Nasty Nasty pursed lipped punitive sanctimoniousness"

This in spades. The 'them's the rules' mentality applied without any intelligence, kindness or common sense is everywhere on MN. As for the school, all it does by this kind of idiocy is alienate well-behaved children. What kind of so-called educator thinks this is a good idea? I'm so glad our local schools don't treat kids like they are mindless thugs. Amazingly, they still get good results and are generally pleasant places where kids and teachers treat each other with respect. Who'd have thought it?

Except thirdfiddle the OP says initially

Unfortunately she has had 2 detention this year.. both minor offences such as using her phone in break.

She changes that later to say the phone was used before school so why say during break?

Either way, the school would have informed students of the new rules and even if they didn't after the first detention the daughter would know that using your phone results in a detention so why break the rule again?

Now she definitely knows not to do it again so will have to make a concerted effort not to break the rules won't she?

In your situation I'd go in and speak to the school.

Fair enough if the detentions were for major offences but for parents to fork out thousands for a trip and have it cancelled for petty reasons is a pretty hard one to stomach.

Presumably your DD doesn't have many weeks left at school though .

Oh for goodness sake, how bloody hard is it to turn your phone off at 8..25 and turn it back on again at 4.30? If you’ve categorically been told not to have it on and choose to, that’s not messing up or a mistake, whatever age you are. It’s either obstinacy or stupidity.
If you want to be obstinate, fine, but accept the consequences. If you’re stupid, equally fine but you shouldn’t be going to SA on a school trip,

Langrish, have you never forgotten a pan and let it burn, git a parking ticket, forgotten to post a letter, left something on the bus of lost something?
How bloody hard is it not to get these things right! And were you forced to cancel your holiday as a consequence?

Nasty Nasty pursed lipped punitive sanctimoniousness going on on this thread

Yes.

And yes I agree it’s the equivalent of a thousand pound fine.

Trunchbull central.

TheRedBarrows

Probably, but not repeatedly after being specifically warned not to, having been told that if I did I’d lose something valuable that someone else had paid for and if I had I would have blamed myself, not someone else.

Thousands of perfectly ordinary children manage to abide by standard rules and get through a term without sanctions. Some others don’t either because they don’t assume personal responsibility (and their parents don’t expect it of them) or they’ve decided that for some reason rules just don’t apply to them.

Thank you all for your comments, advice and support..

Well GCSEs start in the 13th... she's spending all day revising and going to after school drop in support clubs.. I'm just hoping she doesn't get caught picking her nose for her third detention!!...

Thousands of perfectly ordinary children manage to abide by standard rules and get through a term without sanctions.

In normal schools yes. I've heard in some modern academies it's the rarity to never get one. I never had a detention - sure had a few occasions where I forgot a book though. My kids teachers have weeks when they forget to hand the homework out on the day they are supposed to. Humans do make mistakes, lose track of time, forget stuff. I'd like to think I wouldn't have fallen for the phone thing twice, but then honestly the number of times I've made the same mistake twice in my life and been left kicking myself?

Realistically the school isn't going to want the hassle of taking anyone off and dealing with the no refund situation unless they have serious concerns about behaviour.

Absolutely.

I think it's ridiculous not to refund the money. Fair enough to say acceptance on the trip is contingent on good behaviour but once they've been accepted it should take a massive behaviour issue to be thrown off without refund. She shouldn't have to walk on eggs shells all year.

Some schools do give out detentions for petty reasons. For example forgetting a piece of homework. With the best will in the world things sometimes get forgotten and a £1000 fine is a totally unacceptable consequence for a minor mistake.

Thousands of perfectly ordinary children manage to abide by standard rules and get through a term without sanctions.

And thousands of perfectly well behaved students who are trying hard don't get through a term without sanctions.

The bus breaks down and you're late for school? Detention. You come on your period unexpectedly need to sort it and are late for class? Detention. You forget some homework? Detention.

Adults make mistakes and do things they're not really meant to do all the time. I see colleagues on phones in meetings - we're not meant to. People are occasionally late for work or miss a deadline or forget something they should have brought. Humans make mistakes and the consequence should be proportional not of the order of £1000 for a minor slip up.