School threatens to not refund trip money

[bizzy1234]

My Dd has a very expensive year 11 trip to South Africa for a sports tour after her GCSEs.
Aside from being incredibly proud of herself to have been invited into the team she has never missed training or matches.
She has worked hard for about 18 months babysitting and washing cars to pay for half of it.
Unfortunately she has had 2 detention this year.. both minor offences such as using her phone in break.
She is a good kid and works hard.
The school have sent me a standard letter saying if she gets a third detention she will be disqualified from the sports trip and we will not be refunded.
Is this legal for them to a remove a child from a sports trip who apart from petty offences (she's had glowing reports).
NB it's a new deputy head who is handing out detentions like toffees!

Did you (and your DD) know about the rules and restrictions on losing your money if she was not permitted to go for behaviour reasons BEFORE you stumped up for the trip?

If it was clear at the outset I think they could keep your money.
If it's only come up now, I would contest.

But most of all I would threaten DD under pain of death not to use her phone or otherwise get into trouble.

I think this is overkill too. If you dish out detentions for every little misdemeanor, they lose any meaning, except possibly demotivating pupils who are no real problem to the school. If a child is usually conscientious wrt homework, handing out a detention because they forgot once is just mean.
I'd quietly get legal advice as to whether the school can keep your money. Unless your child was behaving so badly they were a threat to safety, I would think it unlikely. Certainly this ought to have been made very clear at the outset, before you handed over payment. If they have failed to do this, I would imagine they can't, but I would check my legal position before doing anything else.

The law gives schools wide powers to set and enforce rules governing the behaviour of their pupils. So yes, it is legal for them to remove a child from a sports trip too many detentions.

The lack of the refund is the part where there's a problem surely, not if they can prevent the child from going. The school appears to acting as a travel agent and failing to provide the travel.

I think the detentions sounds harsh

We also have a new head and a new punishment system - one child had detention for a button being undone - now imagine a workplace where you got dragged over the coals for a button!

A detention for using phone / forgetting homework is pretty standard, and arguably proportionate.

Being stopped from attending an expensive paid for / worked for trip to S Africa is WILDLY disproportionate for forgetting homework / using phone before the bell goes.

FFS stop being so sanctimonious about the detentions, The detentions per se are not the problem.

And I agree - if this rule abut 3 detentions and you're out was introduced after you booked and paid they have changed the goalposts and the agreement. I am sure there will have been a clause about behaviour, but a school claiming that forgetting homework makes it unsuitable for them to take an otherwise well-behaved student abroad is not really credible.

I used to get three a term and was never excluded
I despair at the pressure kids and their parents are under these days
Got caught smoking and drunk at school as well
What's the world come to that texting at lunch time means you can't have a trip and the school threatens to take your money

Why should you get a detention not for doing home work?

That's insane why are we like this

Call the new deputy's bluff.
I would reply to the school's letter saying what you've said here. Explain that she has worked hard to pay for the trip, that you have spoken to her about the phone and that she had listened to you, that the current disciplinary procedures have only been in place for a short time and that your daughter is generally a good student. Say that you feel barring her from the trip is an overreaction and that you will consider taking legal advice to recoup the cost should your daughter be barred from the trip. Tell them you are happy to discuss.
I would address the letter to the head teacher.

Yes she should leave her phone at home. Not so long ago we would organize picking up and dropping off logistics without mobile phones. If it’s too much of a temptation to touch her phone leave it at home.
We dont get to pick and choose how the rules go. The head teacher is laying out the rules. We cannot say oh this student is generally really good so ease the rules. No, it’s the rules. It you get caught with a phone or forget your homework too bad, you knew there would be consequences. It’s a good conversation to have with your kids and say hey that’s just the rules. Stick to them or miss out. When they get jobs later on in life they may lose their jobs for not listening to bosses. Moaning and saying, oh I’m generally good but forgot won’t go down well when you get paid to produce work. I’d rather teach it to her now. Stick to the rules or miss out. So don’t teach her to pour out excuses teach her to understand consequences. I know that’s not a popular response but I think it’s the right one here.

What's the world come to that texting at lunch time means you can't have a trip and the school threatens to take your money

In does indeed seem like a great scam, deliberately overbook the trip and then use the discipline system to ensure that sufficient numbers don't get to go.

For every school trip my dc went on we were warned that poor behaviour would lead to them losing their place and forfeiting any monies.

No scam. Just a warning that only children who proved that they could behave and follow rules would be allowed to go.

This was 2 schools and a 6th form college so seems quite common place. I'd be surprised if OP and her daughter weren't told the same.

The answer rests with the daughter - no more detentions and she will be able to go.

Fred/George: prh is a lawyer iirc so knows what the score is.
I organise school trips and our terms & conditions are very clear. They include repatriation paid for by the parents for many reasons.

I'm not involved in the national school trips but I know one of the kids who was suspended for a day wasn't allowed to go and afaik, didn't get his money back.

The OP would be better off helping her daughter to sort her behaviour out in order to not get any more detentions tbh.

Seems totally OTT to me.

Yes, schools should be able to exclude from trips due to bad behaviour, but 2 relatively minor issues should not result in losing a trip, especially not one likely to have cost over £1k.

If I was a parent at a school like this, I'd be very reluctant to pay for school trips. If they are not careful the school will just end up creating a narrower environment for these kids. Schools also function better when they have parental support. It's a very 'sledgehammer to crack a nut' approach.

I’d really appreciate it if MNHQ could explain that deletion

There was nothing even close to breaking the TGs in there! Was that a mistake?

Just because they put something in the T&C doesn't mean it's legal. It's wholly unproportionate. Seek legal advice and write them a letter to catch them out. They are, in my opinion, just modelling bullying with their draconian behaviour. Just imagine the outcry if an adult employee was witheld a years' salary by their employer for once using their phone during working hours or forgetting something at home? The unions and the tribunals would be all over the employer and the employee would be very much in their rights to claim for compensation. Why would it be helpful to model anything to a child that is nothing like the real world? The OP didn't say that she doesn't want to see her dd disciplined, but what is the point in teaching children that some people misuse their power to create sanctions that are way out of proportion to the deed and thus amount to bullying and create a fearful and demoralizing atmosphere?

NellyBarney

But if they didn't agree with T and C then why sign up to go? It wasn't compulsory.

I think this is way over the top - my son has had 3 detentions this year - 2 for forgetting his homework and one for forgetting his PE kit. He went on a special school trip a couple of weeks ago nominated by his form teacher (only one boy per class) due his good behaviour over the school year. One shouldn't have any relationship with the other.

Just imagine the outcry if an adult employee was witheld a years' salary by their employer for once using their phone during working hours or forgetting something at home?

That is not at all similar though.

Petty detentions are (grudgingly) reasonable; three detentions and you're out of trip is reasonable; the combination of both though seems like madness. Three minor mistakes like using your phone 5 minutes after you were supposed to put it away and before school has actually started, or bringing the wrong book to school? In the course of a year?

Re the costs, I think if they can replace her at short notice they would have no grounds to keep the money, but if they can't replace her they wouldn't be able to recoup the costs. Sports trips to SA seem ridiculously exclusive to start with though.

Cottonwoolmouth

“These are children. Children notoriously mess up. They are not little robots.”

Have you had/ do you currently have 16 year olds? Seriously, if they still can’t obey a simple instruction to switch off their phone, organise themselves to get their assignments in on time (they’re sitting their IGCSEs right now so most won’t have additional assignments anyway) and generally not “mess up” at school, there’s no way on earth they should be going on a trip to SA. Accompanying staff aren't there to hold their hands and wipe their noses.
I’m often impressed by the capabilities of today’s 16 year olds. Ours is already applying for summer jobs. They are not children, they are young adults.

They aren’t in the army either

No, they’re in school sinners to follow school rules.

Sinners? WTF did that come from 😂?

Repeat: no they’re in school SO NEED (bugger off predictive text) to follow school rules.