I have an Instinct DD is attending the wrong school

[user4564376534875487]

Have posted on Sen but posting here also.

My dd may very well have an assessment for adhd or similar over the coming months. She is in reception, in a large class and quite frankly I think she is struggling.
She is bright but loses focus in projects that she isn't interested in. Has problems sitting on the carpet and concentrating at times, is defiant/ does not recognise authority (though I have been working on this) and worse of all has friendship issues - complaints about her being unkind to other children/shoving from a few parents - children didn't tell teacher at the time (she also has an older sister whereas other children don't and is used to fending her corner).
If she does get a diagnosis, I can't see the parents at this particular school being sympathetic toward dd, I think she has already been scapegoated as difficult etc.
I don't believe the school is best equipped to help with dd - large class sizes etc. relatively young and inexperienced teaching staff and a belief in punishing rather than encouraging.
There is a school not too far away, that offers flexible learning, so basically it covers the core subjects in the morning and arts related subjects in the afternoon. Mixed classes (ages) and small. They claim to have a good track record supporting children with adhd and other conditions. To me it could fit the bill. It is private but you can do flexi learning whereby dd could attend in the mornings then come home with me in the afternoon. She gets tired at school and doesn't eat her lunch properly, I'm thinking shorter days for the next couple of years might be just the thing (with obviously reading in the afternoons/drawing/craft/visit to park etc she also does various activities out of school which seem okay.) It would be more affordable this way too and then look to increase days as time goes by. I feel a bit disorientated contemplating this, sometimes I come up with alternative ways to approaching things but obviously don't want to disadvantage dd in any way. DD has an older sister who has done well - academically and with friendships but they are different and to me dd2 being where she is, is like a round peg in a square hole. It is difficult at this age to determine what is an issue and what is age related but I am becoming increasingly convinced that something is underlying. Should I be tackling things head on with current school (I don't have faith in them,) or make a change and hope it is a change for the better. I feel like swopping her to another state school won't achieve much. The thought of pulling dd out feels like a weight lifting but is also dramatic and logistically it would be more difficult. When I ask dd what she likes about school her response is the desserts that follow the school dinners and little else. Anyone else made any drastic school changes in the early years, did it work for your dc? Just exploring any alternatives.

The symptoms do sound like adhd is a possibility.
I am also going through the diagnosis process with my DD who is 10.
If I had had the option of a school like that I would very likely have switched her to it. It sounds much more learning friendly for children who don't match with the standard school system.
My DD has not thrived at her state school and I doubt she ever will. Unfortunately we have had no other option.
Are you going private for your diagnosis? If you are using camhs/the NHS be warned it is a long drawn out process.

It could be ADHD or she could simply be very tired or a late developer in terms of concentration. DD1 was like this in reception (due principally to extreme tiredness) but so much better in Y1 - still on the volatile/fidgety end of things but nothing that stands out from the normal range.

So in other circumstances I might say wait and see how things are next year. However you say your DD has already been pigeonholed as difficult and you also don’t have much faith in the staff or their approach. Those are good reasons to move in themselves IMO. Can you definitely get a place at the other school? And would you be able to move back to state if her issues resolve/it becomes hard to afford?

Thanks for your replies. We will go private for an assessment. We are not super rich, dh has a good job and we don't splash excessively on holidays/clothes etc. so it is doable but only really up to secondary age and obviously it is money that cant be channelled into other things then but I want dd to be happy. She might not be able to move back to that school but I don't think I'd want her to, hopefully there would be a place somewhere else but I think we could do it up to year 7 (and I want to avoid moving her too many times), so we would need to look at finances more closely.
Minipie, I know it could be either or, I think that's why my head's in a spin and I feel very alone with it...if she was a bit older, I wouldn't hesitate but things could resolve themselves with a bit of time and yes tiredness is a major factor despite relatively early nights (dd is an early riser). I don't think staff have pigeon holed her but I think other parents have - she was seen as characterful at pre-school and her speech was very well developed, she spoke eloquently as 3 year old etc. and now mother's are jumping up and down because she has been abrupt/unkind (nothing specific really) although she did tell one girl she was breaking the rules (the girl apparently was upset about something already) and I think dd was a bit abrupt and dd was the straw that broke the camel's back. Whilst I definitely don't agree with bullying (I was bullied myself), I do think kids have to develop a bit of resilience but of course shouldn't feel threatened etc. I don't think some of these children have done that yet, through lack of opportunity whereas dd has a pre-teen sister. This probably comes across as me trying to defend dd but it is a factor in my opinion. So, it is so difficult to work things out but I think I have finally decided that it is worth getting an assessment for dd, if only to know one way or another and so dd can be supported if this is the case. All this feels hard, I don't know anyone else in real life who is experiencing this. She doesn't tick all the boxes but she ticks many across various behavioural issues pda/adhd, but then again we probably all do. So difficult.

Apologies for another epic post! I have done very little today apart from dwell on this. Parents evening last week and it was a negative one. The teacher started off about the friendship issues/dd being unkind and then about how she doesn't concentrate on her phonics etc - it's like waves one day good, the next day not so good and how she could do better because she does have the ability. I came away feeling very stressed about it all and thinking this isn't working!

Not related to school but to tiredness: How early does she wake up? DD was waking at 5 in reception with a 6.45/7pm bedtime, over the summer I pushed bedtime to 7.30 and she now sleeps to 6.15 - that’s a big reason why Y1 is better for her. Worth a try, maybe in the holidays in case it backfires? Also have you had eyes checked etc? Any possibility of sleep apnoea eg does she snore? Does she do lots out of school that could be cut back?

Yes my dd is doing about that - 7.30 pm to 6.15 am. She does have night terrors although she hasn't had many this week but they are pretty awful when they occur. One midweek activity and two at the weekend (Friday night and Saturday morning). She said she was fidgeting on the carpet because she couldn't see the board and on another occasion a boy was playing with her hair (from some reason it was only her that was pulled to one side - probably because she made a big reaction.). She has been seated on a chair alongside the carpet and I am not comfortable with this for some reason, although she says she can see the board more clearly from there! She tends to have a short fuse and her temper can blow up (quite often after school when she is tired) and she does it in style! I go armed with snacks and this helps, she is often hungry, she seems not to eat much lunch at lunchtime, again this doesn't help. The mid day supervisors cant supervise everyone and demand that a child eats but I would like to bet that dd gets distracted and I don't think the school realises what an important issue this is for some children. So there again, it is difficult to say what is behavioural what is environmental and what is age related. She definitely is a character though bless her and can also be very loving and caring too (especially to children who aren't her own age - either older or younger). That's why I think a mixed aged (smaller) class might suit her better but then I think I am just skirting the issue and hampering her development further if I took this course of action, plus there is likely to be less friendship potential. We have had no playdate invites and the only one we had turned into a bit of a disaster (partially because of dc and partially due to issues relating to the other child). I haven't had the courage to try again but as I said she does do things socially outside of school via organised groups.

Whatever the results are of the assessment, and I agree it's worthwhile having one, it's obvious that the current school is not a good fit for your child and has not been for some time.Nor is it likely to be because of the other parents' reactions.

On that alone, I'd start making the arrangements to find her a place at the new school, it sounds like the sort of school that's supportive and she will thrive.

Has she had her eyes checked?

Hmm I hadn’t spotted the mixed age class thing. That makes life harder for the teacher. Also suspect such a flexible school would attrach a high proportion of DC who struggle with “standard” school - young/immature or with undiagnosed SN - so again harder work for the teacher. Small class sizes and very experienced teachers might offset these factors though. Look carefully and talk to as many parents there as you can.

That's my take on it BlankTimes. I don't want to be disrespectful to these other parents but they are mainly young with young children, so haven't witnessed how older children can sometimes behave (not very nice toward each other). I suspect that some of their expectations might be shattered later on but I feel for dd, she is only 5 and sometimes she struggles to control her emotions. What's harder is I don't know who has been 'reporting' incidents or what they were really about as such, only one incident that was relayed and this was about dd laying down the law to an already upset child. DD might be viewed as super confident by some of the parents but I doubt even if the parents knew what's going on for dd that they would care very much sadly other than she just 'isn't nice or whatever.' This doesn't really bode well does it, I've started to dread the school run (and the usual rather large cliché) and the teacher 'having a word' after school, it's stressing me, waiting for the next thing. DD used to attend a Kindergarten as part of a private school and this was a good setting for her because there were other children there who had some of the same traits and made dd seem less noticeable, if that makes sense.

Yes Mini, I am concerned that this alternative school might be too alternative but they have at least 10 good reviews as far as I can see. I'm yet to convince dh but I have already made initial enquires, likewise initial enquiries about an assessment. This has been almost my entire focus today!

Oh it can be all-consuming, worrying about getting it right for your children, can't it?! Mine are teens so different issues, but it has felt like I'd finally stopped worrying about the younger one and promptly started worrying about the older. (we're just looking at a last minute change of school for 6th form, DH's first response 3 days ago when I mentioned it for the first time was "madness" but it is now looking like a serious option, with an interview next week).

Can you do one or two trial visit days at the alternative school, for you and your daughter to get a feel for how it would actually be?

I had a child who was branded the naughty one early on. Possible adhd etc. Turns out there are a few social difficulties but no diagnosis. However with hard work on their part and mine and natural maturity, now surrounded by friends and school are saying what a wonderful child they are.
What I have learnt throughout this is that some parents are massive arseholes who will judge and like to talk about who is not as good as their child. Those parents have, in my experience, now got horror children as they've always been told they're better than others... it's not worked out well. I feel smug inside when I see them after the way we we treated. The parents with their heads screwed on will understand and be empathetic.
Ultimately, don't place too much value on others. Do what is right for her and sod everyone else. The school sounds really good. What happened to my child was complete destruction of confidence that continues now, had I had the chance of a school like that that could have nurtured them instead of just being told off constantly and not understood, I'd have grabbed it. I've come to realise as mine get older how much confidence is key and if the school she is currently at is going to drag her down in that way, get her out.

Whereismytvremote. Yes, those parents don't know what might be coming, they seem to be living in some kind of bubble, whereas I have an older child and know how older children can be in the upper years of primary (although my dd wasn't in the thick of things) there was always some sort of drama and part of me has a wry smile at the naivety of these parents but of course this doesn't help in the interim does it?
We are going to have dd assessed privately but it could be that her difficulties are social rather than adhd, she doesn't seem to tick all the boxes but she is certainly a little character bless her. I have to work double time at parenting her, I have learnt how to approach her - what she responds to etc and what doesn't work - these past 5 years have been hard work but I don't think most parents would understand, they probably assume that I am not bothered and that dd runs wild, um no, a lot goes on behind the scenes.
Speaking to dh, he's not too keen on the small class private school idea, though I really do like the sound of it, he thinks we should try an alternative primary in the neighbouring village, which is slightly smaller than dds current school. Again mixed classes (with the year above) which dd would respond well to because she gets on with older children. I know nothing about the teaching there really, but dd already knows a few children and would settle quite quickly, I think. It is at what point you make that decision, right she should go on that other school's waiting list, I am already teetering but hanging on, waiting to see if she settles a bit more. Confidence is key, I quite agree, I just have this feeling that where she is, is not the best place for her but I don't want to keep moving her about, that seems very disruptive. The other state school has more of a homely feel, if that makes sense, although I don't know the teachers all that well, there is someone I can speak to who would give me the low down (ex T.A there), that might be worth doing in the interim, a sort of sounding out. I know of at least two people who have extracted their dcs from my dds current school and sent them to this other state school plus probably 3 to 4 that I know of that have extracted their dcs and sent them elsewhere, so I am not alone in thinking this. I get what you're saying about not caring what others think, I know I fall into this trap and I do care/ feel judged so there is definitely an element of that although I think I present as not caring/self assured. I tend to keep myself to myself really, I have got ten years on a lot of the parents in dds year (not many older parents), plus an older child who has been all the way through the school.

DD would probably stick out a bit in this other state primary but, I would be interested to know a bit more about the teachers there because I have concerns that the teachers are lacking in experience in dds current school. I think I need to stand back and look at this rationally - what is best for dds confidence and learning, the whole picture as it were. Time to do a bit more investigating I think with a bit more of a rational head on.

My DS1 has very significant processing/working memory problems, now at uni during his school life he attended a variety of schools in both sectors including more alternative education in my desperate attempt to get him into a school where his strengths would be appreciated and his weakness’s correctly supported. By year 9 we gave up paying over the years I’ve listened to a variety of heads (in both sectors) telling me how great they were at SEN and how they wanted to support him frankly none of them (in both sectors) did. If you child deviates significantly off the norm and will need help that’s also deviates off the norm then the chances of you getting it are minimal most schools are stuffed with couldn’t care less teachers who are incapable of reading an Ed psych report even though they themselves commissioned it and just repeatedly come out with the same stuff blaming the child for something that he is unable to do anything about.
I genuinely don’t believe small independent schools are any more likely to deliver what you want and there are plenty of other who I’ve talked to over the years in similiar situations who will tell you the same thing. And I’m afraid unsympathetic parents exist in all schools. Reading your post brought back memories of a mum (not a young mum) actually accosting me in one prep school car park and saying that my child was getting more attention than hers and therefore she wanted him removed from the school so was going to have a meeting with the head about it! And I should add that my DS was very popular with other children and not disruptive.
As money is clearly tightish if I was you I’d think very carefully before moving, you might be better to channel the money into tutors etc. Never forget that many independent schools especially those offering an alternative education want your money and will tell you what they think you want to hear. And their staff may not have the training to suppprt you DD appropriately or the time and unlike the state sector they can ask you childcti leave at any time just because they can’t support her or if she is too disruptive or being unkind to other children complaining parents are likely to be listened too and if a few threaten to leave its more likely that they will ask you to leave and loose one set of fees that let 3-4 leave and who then go away bad mouthing the school complaining about bullying etc. Independent schools may be charities but they have to first and foremost get and keep pupils to survive.
So I think if I was you I’d look at the other primary school first talk to the head there and ask to meet the class teacher(s) perhaps a new start might do her good.
Or could you completely home Ed for a while years ago professionally I met a group of super super high achievers some had savants syndrome, the sort reading degree level math text books in their prams and nearly all had significant SEN they were being home educated but were also part of this group, which met regularly 2-3 times a week, there their behaviour which in many cases was very odd/difficult but was tolerated most had given state Ed a try and had realised it wasn’t going to work for their DC recounting similiar things you describe. The group has existed for a long time so was well established and organised they entered international competitions for engineering and Olympiads etc and most went off to top universities including Oxbridhe (although how they coped with life was skated over!). Obviously this type of thing doesn’t exist everywhere but the thing that came out of it was how much happier the children were in this type of set up/group than in main stream school.

I missed the bit about small classes - when mine was going through assessment we were advised by psychologist to leave them in a bigger school. More children meant more opportunities to hone and observe social skills.
But that may not work for all.

Can you make an appointment at the other state and be totally honest with them to see what support she would get?

I used to make a point of mentioning small things in passing to other parents and a couple actually said oh, I thought to be honest they were just naughty as that's what my daughter said, etc. I just stood firm and said you should never judge without all facts.

DS has struggled like this and we are waiting for an assessment at the mo. His school are inflexible, the head is a manipulative bully, and the small rules that they get obsessed about are ridiculous.

DS struggled in reception, had a great yr 1 and is struggling again in yr 2. Yr 1 he had more understanding teachers. Yr R and 2, every time he does something wrong (even if the individual incidents are weeks apart), it’s proof there is something drastically wrong. On a bad day, they say he’s unteachable, on a good day, they say he’s brilliant. They don’t seem to be able to stand back and look at the whole picture. This yr has been horrific.

Thank you all so much for your input, I have slept on it and decided that I am going to apply for a transfer for my dd to this other state school, this week. I don't think there is going to be a place though so we will have to sit it out unfortunately. Very valid points made above re private sector, that I hadn't even thought about. I had my doubts about this school initially, though it is meant to have a good reputation, my eldest went through it and is at grammar school now but the teaching staff were different then, including the head. I need to speak to an ex-T.A at the new school and will do this, this week to get her low down on the teachers but I get the feeling they are a bit more sympathetic, more experienced. I think there could be a few of those types of parents there also (as dd went to pre-school there) but as you say, you're going to get that everywhere and I think there are less of them. My dd does an after school, organized club which is held at that other school and my dh says she always gets a very warm reception from the other children, like they are genuinely pleased to see her. I am kicking myself now, but having had a new baby the thought of bundling the two children in the car every morning was not appealing, now though, I would be more than willing to do it, having seen how things have gone.

I did think to myself, in the interim, I'd rather keep dd with me and do a bit of home ed (there is a home ed group in the area) but realistically, I have a baby and I could see things slipping unfortunately, even though I set out with good intentions.

Requesting private assessment this week, I feel so isolated, hopefully things will change around a bit. It will also give us something to work from/to present to any new headteacher...these are the issues etc.

Feel relieved to at least be trying to do something about it, thank you all once again and I wish your dcs well, it is so important that they are happy isn't it x

DS would be better in a bigger, more normal school but it would be too much at the moment to try that route. DH against it... I spend my days hoping for the head to retire - he’s not far off.

If we were to look round a new school, I would be completely honest and tell them the absolute worst of what has happened and see what their reaction is. I think that would show a lot. Good luck

They know dd is a bit of a quirky character because she attended pre-school at this other school and the head was hands on and involved with the pre-school too. It will be useful to go to them with a psychologists report though because methods used in educating dd might be a bit more tailored and I feel that I can work with that head there whereas I feel the current head doesn't actually listen and is a largely ineffective.
One parent's child bit my child at pre-school at this other school and apologised but I didn't make a fuss at all because I knew it was an age appropriate thing back then (not that my dd has ever bitten anyone) but I like the imperfections that have already occurred there if that makes sense, and the way that the early years staff responded to dd whereas at the current school dd seems less tolerated somehow, I think it is more rigid, more religious, I can't quite put my finger on it. Her current school looks from the outside, well polished, they coast off of an ancient ofsted report that deemed them outstanding (previous head and different set of teachers) but once inside the school lacks quality of teaching and substance. The parent cliché seems to appear in any school but there seems an unpleasant undertone to the one in her current school. I get on well with another mum at the other school, who is much closer my age, whereas I don't have that currently. Just want dd out now but fear we are in for a waiting game. I've made a massive mistake, I should have just gone with in the first place but pregnancy took its toll with driving and getting dd to this other school in the other village and then as I said the thought of all the bundling in and out of cars with baby (1 year old baby still waking at night), parking and the hope that dd would form friendships in our current village which hasn't completely gone to plan, I feel like I've made a massive mistake and should have toughed it out but I was optimistic that things would be okay. It was a bit dodgy as to whether dd would have got a place at this other school because there were many, many applicants but I see now, I should have given it a try. DD doesn't seem miserable where she is but neither does she seem happy, her enthusiasm has been dampened a bit...the best thing about school she says is the sweet desserts after school lunch and they really don't seem to be bringing out the best in her - focusing on giving her negative feedback/negative rewards. I don't feel okay handing her over to her teacher and I feel doubtful about many of the other teachers at that school (some really good ones have left plus as I said change of head who seems largely ineffective), I have lost confidence and kicking myself for making the wrong decision.

Apologies for the epic post, I guess it's just good to talk about all of this.

Sorry to hear of other parents having difficulty with schooling too x

I haven't rtft I'm afraid, I'm in a rush. But a couple of things jumped out at me from your first post and a couple of your others.

1. Speak to the school, as often as you need to. Even if it's just to check in, communu action is key and you may need to lead on it.

1. I have a friend whose daughter sounds like yours and one of the thi gs that's worked well is that she goes in for lunch time and helps her daughter get a bit of quiet time and a decent meal which helps with the afternoon dip. Obviously it's not sustainable and there is a plan in place to wean her off this support, but it's working really well for now and might be worth considering g for you and your daughter.

1. At our school they strongly discourage parents trying to sort out friendship issues by talking to one another. It sounds strange written down like that, but they want you to feed all to the school and if necessary they'll talk to the other family.

Good luck with whatever you decide, it sounds like you've got your daughters back and that makes her a lucky kid.

Hi Don, thanks for that, some interesting points. I can't see the school letting me in at lunch, plus I have baby in a pushchair but it is worth thinking about a bit more - maybe there is a quiet place, I don't know but I'll have a think because it would obviously involve supervision.
I quite agree about not sorting out friendship issues between parents, I'm just a bit surprised that these parents felt the need to rush in and speak to the teacher as I had seen another child being unkind to dd one morning and didn't automatically think, oh I must speak to the teacher, I wanted dd to try and handle it first and she is fairly resilient. Obviously, if a child is feeling threatened and the interaction becomes malicious well then yes but I wasn't getting this from the teacher and it wasn't too bad as she thought she must speak to me at the time. Also, when are these incidents happening? Perhaps they are happening during break time/unstructured, anyhow there wasn't enough information for me to really drill down on things. DD can be abrupt and she will say what she thinks, it's tricky...a boy got into a fight with her when she first started school and she fought her corner!
Obviously, I encourage her to speak to her teacher if there are any issues, these children hadn't said anything to the teacher but had gone home and relayed THEIR side of the story to the parent who had then reacted by speaking to the teacher.

A child should also be supported in learning how to handle these situations, for example leaving the situation and playing with someone else because it only gets harder as they go up the school years. My eldest daughter who is in secondary school has handled some pretty tough stuff and has changed friendships because a girl was damaging her self esteem quite maliciously BUT dd realised this and disengaged, she has a really lovely group of friends now and I am so proud of her for thinking this was unacceptable and that she wanted better than this and for having the courage to make the move. We have worked hard at helping her deal with various interactions over the years and it is paying dividends now.

I don't disagree with you, but my point is that you can talk to the teachers about this. It's not rushing in, these other parents are just keeping their communu action lines open with their child's teacher. I guess I'm encouraging you to do the same and not to worry what other parents are doing. That sounds harsher than I mean it to, I've tried rephrasing it and end up in knots! I don't think you're doing anything wrong at all. And it's OK that your dd has a different style to these other kids, one of the tough thi gs about settling into schools is finding your place amongst a whole raft of other kids with other ideas about games and stuff.

Fwiw, I have a son who is the class policeman. It can be quite hard for him to understand that kids break rules accidentally, or without knowing the rules and some of those rules are just our 'rules' about being kind and stuff. You have to laugh sometimes, because we don't allow the word stupid. I hate it. So my ds ran off and told the teacher that another kid used the 's' word. He wouldn't say the s word and obviously the teacher thought another kid had siad shit. They all managed to giggle about it in the end, but we had to chat to ds quite a lot about not worrying what all the other kids are doing all the time!

I understand what you are saying Don, no it doesn't sound harsh and your ds does sound a bit like my dd and it has got her into a bit of hot water too. Stupid is not allowed in our house either.

The problem is, I have lost faith in the class teacher and knowing a little bit about the other teachers and feedback from others as well as observation (eldest went all the way through the school), I don't have much faith in about 80% of them and I certainly don't have faith in the head, who took over as head when my eldest was there, so have experience there also. I just think it is time for a change now but obviously want to make sure we aren't just jumping out of a frying pan into a fire, so will sound out about the other teachers at the other school from various sources first. I have completed the transfer forms this morning. Don't think I can broach the subject with dd unless there is a place available or one becomes available, don't want to unnecessarily unsettle her, it feels like I am at least trying to do something proactive whereas trying to deal with the teacher/head at school is not, I don't have confidence in their ability, this too sounds harsh but honest. A smiled at your ds going off to tell the teacher about the 's' word, that's hilarious.