Attending Church, purely to get to a certain school

[sleepydad3000]

They're aren't many things I feel so strongly about, but this issue is one of them. I am currently looking at schools for my daughter. I am a non religious person and my partner is a none practising Catholic, doesn't go to church at all anymore.

I personally think it's wrong on a moral level to exploit a church for 6 months or however long, just to get your child to a certain school. It's almost like, "Oh hi, yes thankyou, I've got what I needed, you'll never see me again!"

2 schools near me are both decent, 1 outstanding and 1 good (Ofsted ratings) interestingly enough, the NON Catholic school has the higher mark as of 2017.... just saying. Both schools are great in my view, religion aside. But I'd feel awful and wrong and like I was cheating or manipulating the system, just to get my girl to a certain school, and then waving bye bye to the church after, as I know for a fact, my partner and I have no intention of going to church afterwards.

they should not use church attendance to prioritise. They are meant to educate the children of the parish. The end.

I meant the removal of the discriminatory admissions criteria, rather than relinquishing of all influence over curriculum etc (even though that would be my preference,).

I don't know, a sense of fair play? Altruism? Inclusion? The same reason my local church runs a soup kitchen that is open to anyone who needs it.

Yes, persuasion can take a number of forms!

Margo - do you not understand why the government cannot overrule the agreement between Church and state like that?

No, I don't Maria. I think a 75 year old legislation is more than overdue reconsideration - particularly if it is discriminatory.

I'm not saying faith schools should disappear, I'm just saying that they should not practice religious apartheid against children. Do you not see why that is wrong?

Where I am has a new church secondary this year (CoE) and they've been very vocal that church attendance isn't part of the prioritizing process for application. Maybe it's to avoid the problem of 'tourists' previous posters have mentioned, but then they're also giving preference for students who are or have been eligible for Free School Meals during their school years (not something I've seen a school around here do before) which, yeah pupil premium, but it still seems to fit in with the traditional ethics of church schools. I wonder if them doing well will encourage others to follow.

I can see the moral debate on using churches just for school places, but with the system as it is - particularly how failing schools and education blackspots in poorer areas are at the moment - I really can't blame any parents for doing what they feel is best for their kids. Whole thing is a mess.

I'm not saying faith schools should disappear, I'm just saying that they should not practice religious apartheid against children. Do you not see why that is wrong?

Schools select children based on all sorts of criteria. Economists the world over research ways to improve public policy on education and one of their favourite past times is trying to invent new amd complicated admissions (selection) criteria. Selection of children on religious criteria happens the world over and generates far less social and academic segregation than many other sorts of selection. The Church supports education in England in partnership with the state and is really rather generous and provides important alternative points of view in education debates.

Margo - what, in your considered opinion, are acceptable admissions criteria for a school?

What a load of bollocks. You don't address social segregation by picking another form of unfair discrimination. Why not decide to favour heterosexual people, that probably gives you a socioeconomic cross section too? .

Do you know what if I could end religious discrimination against children the world-over, I would, but I can't. I can't do it on my own in the UK either but at least I stand some sort of chance.

I am so glad that others think it is wrong too and I will continue to do what I can to ask for religious discrimination and segregation of children to be removed in the UK. I will never be able to see how it can be right to do so, or how it is an acceptable way to allocate tax payers money.

Margo - have you ever lived in a country which offers secular state education to everyone?

You don't address social segregation by picking another form of unfair discrimination.

The most unfair form of social segregation by schools is, arguably and as demonstrated in many countries, geographic selection.

No, I haven't but I believe that some countries do.

Canada
France
China
Sweden only has 70 religious schools & I'm not sure if they are state funded
Norway

To be honest I'm googling to find this out and I don't have time to google the whole world.

I have no doubt you're about to reveal to me the horrors of the Norwegian education system and how it discriminates in some other dastardly way, so I'm reluctant to spend too much time disappearing down this rabbit hole.

What I am trying to help you understand, Margo, is that, even if you are not at all religious, the Church is a huge force for good in education amd the state is far from a pure and altruistic force that eliminates unfairness and creates social justice. It is easy to believe the grass is greener on the other side when you haven’t tried going to the other side!

How is religious discrimination a "huge force for good in education"?

I had no idea that was what you were trying to help me understand - that really has come as a revelation some 200 messages on! If only I'd known that to start with. PURLEASE!!!!!!!

I'm not discussing whether churches are a force for good or not - that seems like a whole other topic.

Nothing you have said to date has made me think that the religious discrimination and segregation that happens to children in the UK is a good thing to do, a christian thing to do, or an acceptable way to allocate tax payers money.

I didn’t say “religious discrimination is a huge force for good in education.” I said “the Church is a huge force for good in education”. I can not defend something I did not say.

All schools select. That is an incontrovertible fact of life. The issue is which criteria are least worst!

I didn’t say “religious discrimination is a huge force for good in education.” I said “the Church is a huge force for good in education”. I can not defend something I did not say.
Are you saying the Church does not discriminate who they let in on religious grounds?

I think the word “discrimination” is loaded. “Selection” is more accurate.

All schools select their pupils.

But to select on religious grounds is discrimination!

And to select on grounds of sex? That’s also fairly widespread.

Discrimination is not right, wherever it happens. You can give me alternative types of discrimination and I am not going to think they are right either.

However, I continue to maintain nothing you have said to date has made me think that the religious discrimination and segregation that happens to children in the UK is a good thing to do, a christian thing to do, or an acceptable way to allocate tax payers money.

Your thinking is very black and white, Margo. I do think you should take a closer look at what happens when societies choose state secular comprehensive education, allocated on geographic criteria alone.

I am committing a mn sin of not reading the thread.

I have taught in 2 catholic schools - private. They will accept anyone who pays the money pretty much - unless it is particular popular school and then a criteria comes in However, I can only go so far in terms of promotion in my current school because I am not catholic.

I think if you are good person who treats others as you would like to be treated, who cares what you do on a Sunday morning? So for the sheer hypocrisy, I would gladly go to church for 6 months to get my child into a better school.

At the last mass that parents were invited to, it was noted that a sizable proportion didn't know what to do in the church. Like I say private school - it's your money rather than the amount of time spent in church that determines whether your child goes there.

It is likely I will always see discrimination as a bad thing. If that constitutes black and white thinking - so be it.