Attending Church, purely to get to a certain school

[sleepydad3000]

They're aren't many things I feel so strongly about, but this issue is one of them. I am currently looking at schools for my daughter. I am a non religious person and my partner is a none practising Catholic, doesn't go to church at all anymore.

I personally think it's wrong on a moral level to exploit a church for 6 months or however long, just to get your child to a certain school. It's almost like, "Oh hi, yes thankyou, I've got what I needed, you'll never see me again!"

2 schools near me are both decent, 1 outstanding and 1 good (Ofsted ratings) interestingly enough, the NON Catholic school has the higher mark as of 2017.... just saying. Both schools are great in my view, religion aside. But I'd feel awful and wrong and like I was cheating or manipulating the system, just to get my girl to a certain school, and then waving bye bye to the church after, as I know for a fact, my partner and I have no intention of going to church afterwards.

It's not a negotiation though, unless the state wants to turn it into one to maintain cordial relations with the church. At the end of the day the state gets to decide what happens, and the church is as subject to the law of the land as you or I are and its route of appeal is to God if it's not happy with that. Ok there's the ECHR at play if it wants to take away property rights without fair compensation (which may or may not be market value in this case, given the maintenance issue) but even that is within the state's power to rescind, much as I wish sometimes it wasn't.

At the end of the day the state gets to decide what happens

No it doesn’t. Are you out of your mind?

Well you can ask God to smite it. You can have a civil war. You can have international sanctions, but in the absence of some kind of upset of this kind, in this country we have parliamentary sovereignty and no one, not even the church, is above the law. I don't know why you find that so difficult to grasp.

It’s amazing how often I come across this “Screw you, I’m all right Jack” attitude from Christians” It’s very strange.

Really, just from Christians you get that from? What nonsense, there are historic reasons why this country has Christian schools and hospitals by the way. It's , entwined in our history. The world has changed, everyone should have a right to have their own religious (whatever faith or none) schools and those schools should admit children from different backgrounds.

That's the point isn't? So why are people so hung up on closing good performing Christian schools instead of the schools like the awful academy my son goes to?

The state doesn’t have a free reign, longest. We don’t live in a dictatorship.

So why are people so hung up on closing good performing Christian schools instead of the schools like the awful academy my son goes to?

Probably because, as with Brexit, they are directing their anger at perceived injustice towards the wrong institution.

It's not a dictatorship, no, it's the embodiment of the will of the people. For as long as the will of the people includes maintaining cordial relationships with the church, compliance with the ECHR and low taxes, the church has its "bargaining power". But ultimately, if the people want something enough, the church is subject to that.

Because it goes against the general principle of fairness. If not everyone can have a school catering to their particular whim, it's far fairer that no one does, and that religion is taught by religious institutions, rather than state ones.

The will of the people hasn’t managed to overcome the structural impossibility of leaving the EU, to give a current example of the power of the will of the people...

“That's the point isn't? So why are people so hung up on closing good performing Christian schools “
I don’t want to close them. I just want to get rid of Faith admission criteria.

The people don't have a coherent wish, that's the problem there. The legislature can easily repeal the ECA 1972. It can't force other countries to grant us rights we want, because they are also sovereign states, subject to the will of their people. It's a wholly different scenario from a "negotiation" with ones own subject

I think you seriously underestimate the power of both the Church of England and the Catholic Church as well as the legal protections of their private property.

A CofE school’s admission criteria: www.bennettmemorial.co.uk/download/23/admissions/2704/admissions-criteria.pdf

That's the point isn't? So why are people so hung up on closing good performing Christian schools “
I don’t want to close them. I just want to get rid of Faith admission criteria.

And this will achieve what? Do you think that all state schools will magically become outstanding?

What do you think makes a school successful?

It would achieve a level playing field for people wanting access to state education? At least on the grounds of faith. I agree there's more to do to level it on other grounds.

The legislature is in charge of the legal protections, that's the point. Maybe I do underestimate the power of the church, maybe you overestimate it. That's the question i guess. But times have moved on since 1944 either

Even.

“And this will achieve what? Do you think that all state schools will magically become outstanding?”

No. Neither do I think it will
make the trains run on time.

What it will do is do something to level the playing field.
As for what I think makes a school successful, the supporters of faith schools say that it the faith element that works the magic. So good faith schools will remain good when the faith criterion is removed- but places would be more equitably distributed.

I think shared values what ever those might be deliver good schools. Those faith schools changing their admission criteria are less likely to remain good performing since some parents will not share those values.

No.* * Neither do I think it will
make the trains run on time*

Well what's the point?

The education system in this country is broken. No one has fixed it and any intervention has made it worse.

“Those faith schools changing their admission criteria are less likely to remain good performing since some parents will not share those values.”

So it is the back door selection then?

We have an oversubscribed consistently outstanding CofE secondary just down the road and are in catchment for the less attractive failing secondary. Many many parents around here joined church for the obligatory 2 years twice a week including a weekday session to get that all important signature on the form. From an intake of 200, around half are allocated to church places, the rest are community places.

Oh how I tittered when the “I care more about my child than you do yours cos I go to church for them” school mum in the playground didn’t get a place for her cherub. No matter how hard she faked the prayers she still didn’t get in #thechurchalwaysknowandtheschooldontlikeit

So it is the back door selection then?

Or a race to the bottom.

As for what I think makes a school successful, the supporters of faith schools say that it the faith element that works the magic. So good faith schools will remain good when the faith criterion is removed

This makes NO sense, Bertrand