to worry about the maths/science teaching standards

[etiennemama]

I'm a foreign national who completed my PGCE in England. One major cultural shock for me when I started my teaching was the lack of subject specialists in the state schools.

I'm from a country where schools only employ subject specialists to teach pupils from primary to sixth form. We have no problem with recruiting STEAM teachers, partly because maths is a mandatory subject at A levels. It is hard to believe that not only are there very few maths/sciences specialists in primary schools, the government here even allows teachers who only achieved a C grade in GCSE to teach maths ( One can get a C or 4 in GCSE maths, if they manage to get 21% of the answers right.).

There's also a lot of obsession with the Finnish education system in the British media. Yes, they have very little homework and more play time; yes, their schools can decide their own curriculum. But how many of the British children are educated by highly qualified teachers? In Finland, nursery teachers are all required to hold Bachelor's degrees. Teachers of reception and above are required to hold Master's degrees. Are we able to match these?

I hope I didn't offend someone. The above is just my observation from my teaching experience here. I think our maths/science education is in a vicious circle at the moment.

Not sure why you’d need a specialist maths teacher to teach basic primary maths
Primary teachers have to all rounders in lots of subjects - they teach skills not facts

I’m sure schools would love to recruit maths and science specialists given the chance, but there is a shortage going into teaching I gather. Certainly I notice lots of marketing towards maths students like me, trying to encourage us into teaching (at secondary rather than primary I hasten to add), but I don’t want to and clearly I’m not the only one. So a lack has been been identified and they are trying to improve things. But I don’t think it’s the fault of schools who can only recruit from who is available to them

@HerSymphonyAndSong absolutely it is not the fault of schools! It is a shame that STEAM subjects often seem as very difficult subjects and pupils don't choose them at A levels. I wonder the lack of confidence is partly due to the insecurity of the subject knowledge from their teachers.

I’m sure you are right to an extent about a vicious circle. But there is also the fact that from my point of view, as someone who they would love to recruit (well, apart from the fact I would be a shit classroom teacher, but let’s ignore that :D ), a school is not an environment I want to work in. It’s not the teaching that’s the problem - it’s the targets, the system, the government etc. My husband is a history teacher (masters level subject specialist as it happens) so I am very aware of what it would be like and I do not want to do it.

@greentulips exactly, primary maths is focused on skills. The subject specialists will be far more qualified to make sense of their subject and teach with real insight.

@HerSymphonyAndSong I totally understand! The morale of teachers is currently low, under the pressure of their management to meet all kinds of targets which have little to do with pupils' learning.

Maths is the most popular A level.

You’re probably from a country who values and respects teachers as professionals as well, I shouldn’t wonder. ‘Teachers’ are a dirty word to some, in the U.K. sadly, and this affects recruitment. You make good points, OP.

@thefallenmadonna, it is true that maths is the most popular option at A level, but we are only talking about 17% of all entries in 2018. In Germany, maths is also a compulsory subject at Gymnasiale Oberstufe (similar to our sixth form).

@blissx Actually I've never read any positive news about teachers.

Sadly a lot of teachers and headteachers are leaving the UK to teach in the international sectors, where they probably will receive more respect and not worry about how they will be judged based on their lesson observations (and better package too).

I was just responding to your suggestion that children don't choose it at A level because it is seen as difficult, whereas I think the difference is there is a choice.

I’m sure there’s a shortage of decent math and science teachers in our schools. Here, primary school teachers must be master of all trades when teaching children. This is why I don’t want to teach here. Not in a school anyway.

Surely you don't need subject specialists to teach Primary?! I have an English and History degree then I did a PGCE. Do you suggest that I go back and do a Science, French, Geography, P.E., Maths, Art and Music degree? I understand and totally support the fact that children should be taught by subject specialists at secondary school and I agree that it's a vicious circle that children are being taught by non-specialists that might struggle to inspire their students resulting in less children choosing to take the subject further. I would also argue that Science should once again become a proper core subject (although listed as a core subject let's face it due to SATS it often gets left to the back of the queue behind English, reading and maths.

I'm a science specialist with a first class science degree and PhD. I've been a science teacher nearly 6 years and don't think I will continue much longer. I spend more time dealing with students behaviour than teaching. I get very little respect from SLT and I'll soon be written off for any new roles because I'm too expensive. They are throwing thousands into recruitment with bursaries that are way above what you actually earn when you start teaching. Once you're in they aren't bothered about keeping you and schools will employ NQTs over experienced staff because they are so much cheaper. I'm looking at other science based jobs not in teaching.

Yep the recruitment bursaries and other incentives are not enough to tempt me into teaching. I see enough of the stresses and frustrations via my husband

I have top grades in GCSE level maths but am in no way a mathematician (hence why I didn't do maths A-level or further. I would not have coped). I'm a trained secondary school teacher and have also done some (non school based) teaching st primary age range.

I can say therefore with some knowledge I am not really good enough at maths to teach primary maths. If I had to do it for a job I would do a lot of training and preparation and make an adequate job of it. But it would not be good. I don't think like a mathematician; I do most of my maths by brute force.

Watching my husband help our kids with maths (he is postgrad qualified in a numerate discipline) is like night and day. He can explain concepts I don't know well enough to put into words. Specialist maths input early on is not a waste and shouldn't be seen as a luxury.

bellasg - that's such a shame to read your post. I've been tinkering with the idea of retraining as either a science or maths teacher for Highers... I'd have thought/hoped that teaching Chemistry for example at that level (i.e., optional!) - that I'd not have to withstand such bollocks. :(

OP - I have serious concerns about the primary level maths taught here in Scotland. I have met several primary teachers who not only seem to be mathematically innumerate - but also struggle with SPaG. I did maths modules at university and used quite a lot of maths in industry... the manner in which it's taught is so convoluted and backwards... My eldest worked out the "old-fashioned way" himself and presented it to his teacher who was confused. I'm supplementing school with Carol Vordeman's maths programme - which is excellent and they've learned more in a few hours with Carol then they have in months with school.

I’m lucky enough to teach in a school where the maths teachers are all specialists as are the science staff and even the mfl department. I’m very conscious that this makes a huge difference to the experience that the students have and that results are good as a result. Staff morale is good in the school and people don’t leave to stop teaching but to move on in their career. However like others have said, I’m worried about recruitment bursaries that are higher than salaries and that once staff retire they won’t be replaced by similarly qualified teachers.

It's not recruitment that's the problem, it's retention.
You can see on here the number of teacher bashing threads, the parents telling their kids to just walk out of lessons, not attend detentions etc. If you do t have parental support and respect you have nothing.

The government don’t value teachers and never will.

Most people with excellent STEM qualifications don’t want to go into teaching because the pay is low, workload is high and mainly pointless and heads are always looking to replace you with someone cheaper.

In UK we have a vast shortage of science, maths and language graduates who want to go into teaching. Teaching is seen as a cushy job by some due to the holidays but for what you have to do the salary is utterly dire IMO. I would strongly discourage mine from going into teaching.
I hate the British/Scandinavian comparison as it is apples and pears, not just a few procedural differences that end up with vastly differing results. Finland for example has much higher taxes in UK, ergo a lot more money pumped into the education system. The education system is single tier, so children have a more equal chance in life. Teaching is well paid and more importantly well respected, therefore competition to get in is on par with medicine.

I actually think we have great primary teaching in the UK. A teacher is supposed to teach everything from core subjects to French, music and art and from my dc's experience I am very impressed generally. I am much more concerned about secondary education. Mine attend a grammar which does not have half of the behavioural issues that the local 'high' does but teachers are frequently off for stress related issues. When ds was doing GCSE's a maths teacher went off initially for 3 months and in that time they had a series of non-maths sub teachers. Then you have one teacher being expected to teach more than one subject; if you have a subject at A level you are now qualified to teach it. It's all about saving money, but teachers are run ragged and often by the time you have settled the class there is very little time for teaching.

In Dec my DDs school had to 'cancel' Physics as there was no Y9 teacher. She is continuing with Chemistry and Biology and apparently they will pick up Physics in Y10. Last week the Chemistry teacher told them that she was probably leaving at the end of the year...

Her amazing maths teacher left at the end of Y8 and has been replaced by a teacher that rarely gives homework, gets the children to 'peer mark' tests (which leads to answers being marked incorrectly) and when DD was struggling with a specific question/formula told her to "look it up on MrBarton, I don't have time for this".

I am seriously considering moving her, but worry that the same issue will be at schools across our area, if recruiting is so dire.

For a start it's STEM not STEAM! Secondly, as a primary educator, now a head, with over 25 years experience I find your comments deeply insulting. This country, rightly, values child centred education for its youngest children, where the focus is on all round development delivered through hands on experiences, active learning and play. Early years and KS1 education should not be delivered be subject specialists who push their subject over and above the overall development of the child. The young brain learns holistically, not in subject specific compartments.
Your post has angered me. You show blatant disregard or understanding of child development or psychology.

STEAM includes Art in the mix.