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Education

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40% of top grades to private pupils

312 replies

Judy1234 · 24/06/2007 16:06

That's astonishing - 70% of physics teachers in the private sector have a physics degree and 30% in state schools.

44% of A grades in French and German to private pupils.

40% of A grades in science and languages from private schools.

Yet they educate 7% of children.

" Private school pupils earn 40pc of top grades

By Julie Henry, Education Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph

Private school pupils win 40 per cent of all the A grades awarded in England in science and modern languages A-levels, figures have shown.

With the independent sector educating just 7 per cent of children, the statistics demonstrate hugely disproportionate achievement at the highest level in some subjects.

The dominance of private school pupils in two major areas of study helps to explain the difficulties that leading universities face when trying to increase their state schools intake. Admission tutors seeking the best-qualified candidates struggle to meet Government benchmarks for the proportion of undergraduates from comprehensives and poorer backgrounds and, in some departments, private school pupils vastly outnumber state school ones.
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Alan Smithers, the director of the centre for education and employment research at Buckingham University, said: "These results show the iniquity of the top universities having to account for themselves in terms of the backgrounds of their students.

"The reason for the concentration of good results in the core subjects of science and languages is that independent schools recognise that they open up future opportunities for pupils. Universities are being expected to compensate for the failure of some of our secondary schools to provide opportunities in these subjects. In the private sector, 80 per cent of physics teachers have a degree in physics. In the state sector, just 30 per cent of those teaching physics are qualified to that level in the subject."

The data, published in response to a parliamentary question, shows that 44 per cent of the A grades awarded in French and German last year went to pupils in private schools, as did 36 per cent in maths, 38 per cent in physics and 37 per cent in chemistry. On average, 40 per cent of A grades in sciences and modern languages across the country were gained by sixth formers from private schools.

Subjects perceived as harder to do well in remain a major focus in private schools. State schools, under the pressure of government league tables, are said increasingly to be encouraging pupils to go for better grades in "easier" subjects.

Sam Freedman, the head of research at the Independent Schools Council, said: "Independent schools don't allow children to take the easier options because they are not made available.

Fewer than half of schools in the sector offer media studies, for instance. We support traditional subject areas like the sciences and languages because they are a better grounding and because universities such as Oxford and Cambridge have made it clear that these are the kind of A-levels they want.

"Many universities would not have maths, science and French departments if it were not for the independent sector providing high quality candidates."

The achievement gap between the independent and state sectors is expected to increase further when the A* grade at A-level is introduced in 2008. Research carried out in 2003 by the Assessment and Qualifications Alliance, the exam board, found that independent school pupils were up to five times more likely to achieve marks at the upper end of the A grade at A-level than their state school counterparts.

OP posts:
Anna8888 · 27/06/2007 10:22

B&W - your job is to educate your pupils . I'm sure you are excellent at your job. Be satisfied with that, not frustrated.

blackandwhitecat · 27/06/2007 10:25

And actually the hospital thing is helpful here. If someone came to hospital with massive brain injuries and having had a heart attack no one would blame the hospital or doctors if he went on to die (as long as they did their utmost to save him) but kids come to schools with no parental love, unable to read, relate to others properly, communicate at all, malnourished etc and in spite of the shcools doing their best they are STILL blamed when the kid doesn't come out with any qualifications.

Quattrocento · 27/06/2007 10:28

B&W, I LOVE the fact that you want to change the world. That's fantastic. We need people who think it isn't too darn difficult to make any kind of headway at all. That really is fantastic. Good luck to you.

One thing Xenia said further down the thread, which did make some sense (she frequently does make sense, does Xenia) is that governments don't spend money wisely. That is true. The ONLY reason that private schools succeed is that they provide what the parents want.

IsabelWatchingItRainInMacondo · 27/06/2007 10:30

BlackAndWhiteCat, I tend to disagree with that, I don't think that unversity is for everyone, but before somebody comes and shot me up in flames, let me explain myself better:

I have always believed that the main problem with higher education success may lay in making us believe that attending university = success. Well, it's not, first because being economically succesful won't necessary make us happier and, there is no guarantee that having a degree will get you a well paid job or even one in the subject you studied at Uni.

I believe that some people may be happier with more "intellectually-demanding" jobs, while some others would appreciate an easy going pace that allow them to do things they enjoy more. The problem then is, IMO, the misconstrued idea that you are a failure if you don't attend university.

I was a lecturer in my past life and I saw many students who were brilliant, mostly because they had chosen their subject to fit well with their own characteristics rather than because they were genious of some sort.

There were many others there, though, that were there for the "money", the status or because that was the right thing to do. Some of the these were good, some were good through hard work and some were failing at it.

I have the deep belief that this last failing group was not stupid at all, they were just pursuing the wrong career. These people could have been very happy and successful in other areas, even in those that don't require a degree, but by choosing to go that route they ended up frustrated and most failed to secure a job in the area anyway. I think this is a disgrace, not because of the waste of economical resources invested in schooling that person, but because the outcome of it was to make an otherwise capable person, feel like a failure, an idea of themselves that may be with them trough the end of their lives. That's a waste!

So, yes, I would preffer DS to be a toilet cleaner if that makes him happy, rather than a graduate of a subject that makes him misserably. And although I apreciate that being told he is not good enough for what he wants to be would be painful, it would be worse to let him carry up with the wokr without the faintest idea that he is very likely to fail at it.

hydrophobia · 27/06/2007 10:36

what happens to a child in a private school who is disruptive, or doesn't do homework, or doesn't bring the correct equipment and books for the lesson or wanders into lessons late with no good reason

It is much easier to provide what parents want if you are a smallish school and not large education authority running dozens of schools with thousands of pupils.

IsabelWatchingItRainInMacondo · 27/06/2007 10:37

By the way, you don't disillusion me but believe me, you have to see life out of Britain to realise that financial hardship here's a bit of a doodle compared to other places!

"I hate to disillusion you but one of the biggest reasons for not taking up university places and drop out is because of finacnial hardship"

hydrophobia · 27/06/2007 10:42

student financial hardship doesn't stop them going out clubbing several nights a week, drinking, buying fancy mobile phones and ipods and subscribing to online games and having cars in some cases - maybe once you have a student debt of x thousand a debt of x + y thousand doesn't seem to bad

IsabelWatchingItRainInMacondo · 27/06/2007 10:52

...and before somebody says I have no idea about what financial hardship is... well, thanks to choosing a career my parents didn't aprove of I ended up with very very scarce resources, to the point that my budget for eating a day was less than £1.00 (I paid for al my other expenses), which sometimes had to be forfeited in other to pay for photocopies, materials, etc. I didn't have access to scholarships/loans, as there were not many available for foreign students.

Was it difficult? yes, very. Impossible? no; has it left me scarred for the rest of my life? No, if anything it has made me stronger. Ahh, and I still remember with great nostalgia the jacket potatoes and snicker bars that got me all the way trough university. Fortunately, I didn't have any problem in putting my weight back once I started working.

figroll · 27/06/2007 10:58

May be some state schools are too big? This was something that really worried me when looking for a secondary school. I didn't want my kids to be lost in a school with 2000 children. (there is one that big by where I live).

They went to a very small primary school, but were expected to transfer into a massive comprehensive. If a child is messing about, the teachers have more chance of knowing them if the school is smaller. There aren't (m)any private schools with an intake of 330 each year.

I also think league tables have a lot to answer for as there is less incentive to get the higher grades. So long as children are getting C grades, then the school looks good in the league tables.

By the way, I don't blame teachers for the poor performance of children, but I do blame the curriculum. I have probably said it before but why are we teaching Shakespeare in year 7 to children who may have still been on the reading scheme in year 6? There are lots of really excellent books around that children would enjoy, but we still persist with antiquated texts that, frankly, bore the children to death.

wychbold · 27/06/2007 12:09

I agree with Figroll about school size. I think the Govt's Expanding successful schools scheme is crazy.

Quattrocento · 27/06/2007 12:22

So what about the bright children who are more than ready to read shakespeare in year 7? Do they have to hang around and wait for the others to catch up?

smallwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:25

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hydrophobia · 27/06/2007 12:25

does this mean a return to a form of streaming within a comprehensive school so some can do shakespeare and some can continue with biff and chip

Quattrocento · 27/06/2007 12:31

Schools denying shakespeare to children because half the class can't understand? Why can't they work with children who can understand? Why can't children read the things they are ready to read? They have to be held back? And you think this is good?

blackandwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:38

Oh how I love a bit of stereotyping Hydro. Most students undertake paid work to fund themselves through univeristy (sometimes up to full-time hours) and increasingly students are staying at home so they don't have to pay rent (therefore unless they happen to live in Oxford, Cambridge or wherever) ruling out application to many top universities. I, personally, don't begrudge students spending their money (especially since it is the money that they've earned or will have to pay back through loans for many years now there are no grants) on getting pissed and going clubbing every now and again. I don't mind confessing that I did this myself. There really do have to be some compensations for eating beans on toast and living without central heating and with slugs in the kitchen (did this too!) and you really do have to allow kids to be young.

Many of the students we send off to university are muslim and drinking and gambling are not really part of their experience. They stay at home with their parents, work their socks off (often as medics so for 5 years +) and undertake paid work.

DP and I set up various funds for our kids when they were born to help get them through university. Again, this is an advantage not available to most working class kids.

Isabel, on the idea of being happy with your son being a toilet cleaner rather than studying a subject at university he didn't enjoy ('as long as it made him happy' of course!). Yeah, right. Because it's really likely that children of middle classes will choose this as their preferred career and it's just so so likely it will make them happy. I worked as a chamber-maid amongst otehr jobs to get myself through university. Not only do you get to clean shit, and get shittily paid, but you also get treated like shit. Oh, I so love the idea that there are millions of poor kids just waiting for the opportunity to leave school and sweep roads and clean loos. How mean and misguided it would be if we gave them a good education and the opportunity of a rewarding career instead!

It doesn't matter what your degree is in it makes you more employable and means that statistcally over your lifetime you will earn significantly more than non-graduates.

We're sending 32 kids from state comprehensives on a trip to Oxford next week by the way and getting a whole bunch of year 8 kids in for a modern langauge study day. Oh, how we teachers in the state system fail to encourage aspiration and give up on working class kids. Perhaps we should just save everyone the time and effort and show them the roads and the cleaning cupboards instead!

blackandwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:42

Kids of all abilities like doing a bit of Shakespeare at Yr 7 and before. Teaching Shakespeare doesn't mean reading the whole text and then 'translating' every line like in the bad old days. A lot of our students are really positive about their experience of Shakespare at school (although admittedly they may have only studied 2 scenes and watched the video)!

I agree that transition to secondary school is a massive problem. Apparently kids typically regress by a year academically in their 1st year at secondary school.

smallwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:42

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smallwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:45

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blackandwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:46

I recommend you read the thread again yourself small white and look at what is being implied. It's ok for us middle-class parents to do what it takes to get our kids into the best schools and the best universities but university is not for everyone, dahling, and we really do need more road sweepers.

Rubbish, rubbish, rubbish.

Quattrocento · 27/06/2007 12:48

Is there any room on the bus to private schools, smallwhitecat? Budge over.

smallwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:49

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blackandwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:49

Which views smallwhite? I'm saying that kids can and do and should study Shakespeare and they enjoy it. At the moment I'm also teaching Hamlet at A2 but I'm also teaching Chaucer and Byron.

smallwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:52

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Quattrocento · 27/06/2007 12:52

It sounds as though Figroll is a teacher and this appears to be his/her opinion:

"By the way, I don't blame teachers for the poor performance of children, but I do blame the curriculum. I have probably said it before but why are we teaching Shakespeare in year 7...?"

blackandwhitecat · 27/06/2007 12:53

Where is the class hatred and dogma? I've got nothing against the middle-classes. I think it's great when parents are supportive and encourage their kids to value education. This is what I do all day at home and at work. Is it that I am saying that some kids don't have all of these advantages and there are barriers in their way to a good education and a good career that you find so horrifying?