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40% of top grades to private pupils

312 replies

Judy1234 · 24/06/2007 16:06

That's astonishing - 70% of physics teachers in the private sector have a physics degree and 30% in state schools.

44% of A grades in French and German to private pupils.

40% of A grades in science and languages from private schools.

Yet they educate 7% of children.

" Private school pupils earn 40pc of top grades

By Julie Henry, Education Correspondent, Sunday Telegraph

Private school pupils win 40 per cent of all the A grades awarded in England in science and modern languages A-levels, figures have shown.

With the independent sector educating just 7 per cent of children, the statistics demonstrate hugely disproportionate achievement at the highest level in some subjects.

The dominance of private school pupils in two major areas of study helps to explain the difficulties that leading universities face when trying to increase their state schools intake. Admission tutors seeking the best-qualified candidates struggle to meet Government benchmarks for the proportion of undergraduates from comprehensives and poorer backgrounds and, in some departments, private school pupils vastly outnumber state school ones.
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Alan Smithers, the director of the centre for education and employment research at Buckingham University, said: "These results show the iniquity of the top universities having to account for themselves in terms of the backgrounds of their students.

"The reason for the concentration of good results in the core subjects of science and languages is that independent schools recognise that they open up future opportunities for pupils. Universities are being expected to compensate for the failure of some of our secondary schools to provide opportunities in these subjects. In the private sector, 80 per cent of physics teachers have a degree in physics. In the state sector, just 30 per cent of those teaching physics are qualified to that level in the subject."

The data, published in response to a parliamentary question, shows that 44 per cent of the A grades awarded in French and German last year went to pupils in private schools, as did 36 per cent in maths, 38 per cent in physics and 37 per cent in chemistry. On average, 40 per cent of A grades in sciences and modern languages across the country were gained by sixth formers from private schools.

Subjects perceived as harder to do well in remain a major focus in private schools. State schools, under the pressure of government league tables, are said increasingly to be encouraging pupils to go for better grades in "easier" subjects.

Sam Freedman, the head of research at the Independent Schools Council, said: "Independent schools don't allow children to take the easier options because they are not made available.

Fewer than half of schools in the sector offer media studies, for instance. We support traditional subject areas like the sciences and languages because they are a better grounding and because universities such as Oxford and Cambridge have made it clear that these are the kind of A-levels they want.

"Many universities would not have maths, science and French departments if it were not for the independent sector providing high quality candidates."

The achievement gap between the independent and state sectors is expected to increase further when the A* grade at A-level is introduced in 2008. Research carried out in 2003 by the Assessment and Qualifications Alliance, the exam board, found that independent school pupils were up to five times more likely to achieve marks at the upper end of the A grade at A-level than their state school counterparts.

OP posts:
DominiConnor · 26/06/2007 17:19

Actually, to be honest I am in the minority who don't advocate separation for other people's children...
I find myself in a slippery ethical position on this. Partly I want my kids kept away from those with defective parents, or who themselves are a danger. Part of me is quite happy to pay money to give my kids an unfair advantage.

But...
Part of me is really angry that I can do thi.

I have resources that mean my kids will be given a better shot than most. What makes me angry is that the gap is so huge, and not directly based upon the merit or effort of my kids.

I suspect it also makes B&W angry, and for similar reasons. There is no reason why the local state schools could not be made as good as our private one, indeed there are any number of things that could be improved upon.
But I pay a lot of tax which is wasted on crap, when poor kids (like I was) don't get a fair shot.
That's not just wrong in some dippy moral sense, it's really bad for this country. My work brings me into contact with smart people on an international basis, and in the modern world there is a global market for talent. Britains position in the 21st/22nd centuries will be defined by the quality of the people living here, not oil reserves which will be gone, or accidents of geography, but our smart people vs theirs and frankly it's not looking good.

smallwhitecat · 26/06/2007 17:38

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blackandwhitecat · 26/06/2007 18:55

'What makes me angry is that the gap is so huge, and not directly based upon the merit or effort of my kids.

I suspect it also makes B&W angry, and for similar reasons.'

Yes.

But ...
'There is no reason why the local state schools could not be made as good as our private one'

... this is ridiculous.

1.) Private schools educate only children whose parents value education enough to pay for it.

2.)And who are ABLE to pay for it (except the tiny percentage of kids who win scholarships for whom at least the valuing education counts but also exceptional ability and enterprising parents). This means EVERY student in a private school has 2 enormous advantages which are amongst the largest determiners of a child's academic success (together with parents' level of education which is likely to be high in in corrolary to their wealth).

3.) They select by ability (which actually overlaps with 1 & 2 above). You've said you don't want state schools to select and divide kids into successes and failures. And obviously not every school could select.

4.) Private schools can and do kick out kids who are troublesome or needy or who are not keeping up or who are unlikely to get good grades (they have a quiet word with parents giving them time to find another school). State schools cannot do this because their mission is to be accessible to all. If a kid gets kicked out of a state school they will have to be educated at another state school.

Take the 4 massive advantages above away from private schools and they would be just like any other school.

'indeed there are any number of things that could be improved upon.'

Of course, there is no business or organisation or human being that you couldn't say this about.

'But I pay a lot of tax which is wasted on crap, when poor kids (like I was) don't get a fair shot.'

Agreed about the money wasted. I fume that my taxes pay for a war that I didn't want and feel is totally unjustified. Agree that poor kids don't get a fair shot but most of this is because they are poor (and everything this entails about their families and aspirations etc) and not because of the schools not doing their very best (in the vast majoirt of cases to give them their best shot)

Gobbledigook · 26/06/2007 19:01

Ooh, this thread is way too long but who is RosemaryWoodhouse = she/he talks a lot of sense imo.

JoolsToo · 26/06/2007 19:03

there seems to be an assumption that money can buy brain power?

imho you've either got it or you ain't.

Yes you can improve on your talents some with extra tutoring but all the money in world won't make an average violinist a virtuoso.

Gobbledigook · 26/06/2007 19:04

"If you look at the demographic of the tory membership, it's old, stupid people (average age around 60)."

Interesting - since I am only 34, have a grade A in A level physics (since you were talking earlier about that particular one!) and a very good degree (science, if it matters) from a red brick university.

So, I'd say, neither old nor stupid!

Quattrocento · 26/06/2007 19:08

As a parent, I want to provide the best I can for my children. The private schools produce better results, create a better learning environment and seem to me to offer wider opportunities. Therefore, so long as I can afford to, I WILL pay for this for my children.

If there were no gap, or a very small gap between state schools and private schools, then the decision would be different.

Of course I would rather not squander tax money on wars. Of course I would rather education had a bigger priority. I wish the state schools were better. But I am not responsible for the way things are. I just have to do the best I can for my children. I don't live in an abstract world.

I am cultivating my own garden because that is quite simply all I can do. How on earth can that be wrong?

Quattrocento · 26/06/2007 19:21

By the way B&W not all private schools are selective. Not sure what the percentage difference is but I would not be surprised if the majority were not.

Kaz33 · 26/06/2007 19:21

No, it isn't wrong - but it is very sad that we have so lost sight of the communities that we live in.

That we don't value the education of all children as something that we all have a part in. Children who fall through the gaps are going to be the drug addicts, the criminals, the ASBO merchants of the future. When they could be Oxbridge graduates, the plumbers, the artists of the future. Our failing of our kids makes our communities a less safe and pleasant place to live.

We are not mega rich or politicians who can make policy but we can do our best within our communities - being part of the solution, not the problem and setting an altrustic example to our kids.

aintnomountainhighenough · 26/06/2007 19:41

Kazz33, I am genuinely confused how I can make a difference to someone in my community who is less fortunate than me. Can you explain?

Quattrocento · 26/06/2007 19:46

So am I! I pay my taxes. Not my fault the government squanders it on blardy wars. Please don't suggest I can contribute time to doing something worthy. I have no time. No time at all.

Anna8888 · 26/06/2007 20:29

Quattrocento - on cultivating your own garden, yes, you are completely right. That is all any of us can and should do.

If everyone spent more time cultivating their own gardens we wouldn't have so many problems in society to worry about. Greater overall feelings of responsibility towards one's own family and children would cure many ills.

FioFio · 26/06/2007 20:35

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Gobbledigook · 26/06/2007 20:39

Ha ha - love it Fio!

Gobbledigook · 26/06/2007 20:40

Ooohh, do I detect more tories?!

Lilymaid · 26/06/2007 20:50

I love these threads. I think they self generate every fortnight and it gives us all a chance to restate our views (or prejudices if you don't agree). I wish the heat generated could be used to improve the lot of the disadvantaged! I shall stay on the fence having sent my DCs to both state and independents.

aintnomountainhighenough · 26/06/2007 21:00

Sorry girls but remember only 7% of the population are educated at private schools. I would be interested to see the breakdown of grades by subject since I have feeling that this would show an even bigger divide between state and private.

Lilymaid · 26/06/2007 21:30

Unfortunately it does. If you look at this BBC news report from 2005 it refers to a report by Durham University. The report is covered in more depth in the Independent Schools Council March 2005 Bulletin (reach this from the links on the side of the BBC Report. The reason is probably the shortage of teachers generally in Maths, Science, Modern Languages at all levels. There must be plenty of students whose experience of these subjects has not been good because of the shortage of teachers. I also read that the Royal Academy of Engineering has noted (sadly) that 50% of students qualified to do engineering degrees now come from the independent sector.

clutteredup · 26/06/2007 21:32

Wow, this has become a long thread since I was last here on Sunday - just a point though - should we be insisting that everyone be eduacated to degree level whether they want to or not? Is there not a possibility that some people might prefer to get the minimum of academic qualifications and then train to become a skilled labourer or craftsman ( or woman!!)or work in a non academic job - do these people really need to be dragged kicking and screaming through the system? I am not advocating 'segregation' as such but wouldn't these non academic people be happier to be given the opportunities to persue real interests they have rather than making them go thorugh the comprehensive 'further education for all' system so demanded by this government. Both choices should be available to all regardless of background - then those who don't want to stay at school don't have to and then don't have to disrupt those who do. Then there wouldn't be a precieved need for private education.

Gobbledigook · 26/06/2007 21:46

Totally agree cluttered up - teh whole thing hangs on teh assumption that everyone wants to go to university, that everyone aspires to be an academic or wants to be a lawyer/doctor/merchant banker (delete as appropriate).

I know plenty of people without a degree, A levels even, who are blissfully happy, working in jobs that they love, that are rewarding and paid well.

Why is the non-academic route so undervalued - like staying at home with your children - this is why so many people are scrambling away from these roles, not necessarily because they don't want them.

Lilymaid · 26/06/2007 21:50

We should all be concerned that everyone should have the possibility of a good education however academic or not they are. Major problems now in the training of craft skills - especially in the building trade. Employers don't want to train up school leavers or even take on those who have done some technical college training when they can get fully qualified experienced Polish plumbers etc and pay them not much more than the British 18 year olds would be getting.

Dinosaur · 26/06/2007 21:51

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This has been withdrawn by MNHQ at the poster's request.

clutteredup · 26/06/2007 21:56

I think 'equality of opportunity for all' has been confued with 'equality for all'. I'm with the first one, everyone should have the same opportunities, but not everyone is, or wants to be the same. It's a sad but true fact of life that not everyone will be intelligent enough to be a rocket scientist - which I personally think a good thing as you don't need a lot of those for society to run smoothly. What you do need is a lot of people who are good at the jobs which need doing , including cleaning toilets and the streets etc. If everyone has a degree you aren't going to get a whole lot of builders or road menders ( I'm sure htere's a more technical term!!). If you say that everyone 'should' have a dgree it makes a lot of people feel inadequate if they don't achieve one , for whatever reason, and then instead of taking pride in a career they can do well they feel let down by a society that demands everyone should be the same and therfore end up disillusioned and don't want to make a contribution to a society that they feel has failed them.
Dangerously though you may find that a larger percentage of lawyers and other such professions will come from the more academic classes - which I believe some people might feel is 'not sufficiently fair'.

Gobbledigook · 26/06/2007 21:58

Oooh,

Judy1234 · 26/06/2007 22:25

Anna, on graffiti - I'm not sure. If you have zero tolerance of shouting, running, litter then there is less of it. Some of those children walk through our local area with their marker pens so we've been working with police on that and at the school someone locally saw walls literally covered in graffiti so zero chance the head can stop them doing it on the way to school. I think you can do more with ensuring there is none, painting over it when it appears, searching pockets for marker pens, tracing whose logos are used (they usually all have a specific mark they use to identify themselves).

I suppose following that through we would be wise to keep some people back and down, as we need people who don't have a 2/2 in media studies from Middlesex University. We'd rather they left school at 16 skilled in woodwork so they could get the jobs we need them for. And given most of the girls are going to end up full time housewives like a lot of mumsnetteres I suppose we ought to be encouarging them to do 5 GCSEs in childcare and cooking and how to look pretty so they snare a nice husband and settle down and have babies as that will be their life's work.

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