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There is no such thing as dyslexia.

248 replies

VioletBaudelaire · 30/05/2007 11:24

www.theherald.co.uk/display.var.1430434.0.0.php?utag=40859
I've had my say!

OP posts:
Dontknowmyarsefrommyelbow · 07/06/2007 12:00

Oh dear, this thread title makes me sad!

I am a bit confused tho?

When I was diagnosed with Dyslexia (twice - aged 6 and 18) the very first test was an IQ test - I guess to establish if I was just thick!!!?
When my IQ score came back at above normal - then further tests were carried out to establish what areas I struggled with and to what level.
From there I kind of got an idea how I could tailor my studies and my learning style accordingly.

So for me Dyslexia has never been just a 'blanket' term - it has been an overall heading to a more in depth and very personal diagnosis. I struggle with ordering of letters and words, another dyslexic could struggle with something completely different IYSWIM.

Anyhow - I CAN READ - in fact I have learned to read so well I now have a photographic memory, as I do need to apply A LOT more concentration than the average person.

I have a degree and a very good job that requires me to read, understand and discuss some very technical clinical trials - which has never been a problem - I just go about it in a different may be.

If I hadn't had the understanding of my learning disability (which is what it is - it's certainly not a glamourous excuse!) then I am sure I would have found reading and learning very frustrating, the diagnosis and pinpointing where I struggled gave me the tools to find a different way rather than just giving up.

Sorry for any spelling mistakes

frances5 · 07/06/2007 13:20

nooka,

I think that formal school is really hard for active little boys who aren't boringly meek or complient. Primary schools often set up little boys for failure.

You need to make the phonics fun so that he does not realise he is learning. For example my son like musical letters. I wrote some letter sounds on pieces of paper. My husband and my son then "dance" to the music and when the music stop I call out a letter sound. The two of them then have to jump on to the letter sounds. Another varient is to get the child to call out the letter sounds.

We also play phonic I-spy. You use the letter sounds instead of the letter names. For example I spy something begining with "sss" instead of ess. Its a good idea to diagraphs like "sh" for sheep or "ch" for church as well. When your child can hear sounds at the begining of words then you can try and get him to hear sounds at the end of words and the middle of words.

Blending is really hard to master. Prehaps you need to take it a few steps back and just practice letter sounds.

Have you tried modelling blending to him. You need to say the letter sounds quickly. It helps to say the first letter sound loudly and then whisper the other letter sounds. Prehaps if you get a nice picture books and then you can look for objects in the picture (ie. can you find me the s-u-n)
Games like these help train the ear to listen for sounds.

I would not get your son to read any word boxes on his own until he can hear the word when you sound it out. Once he can hear the word then he needs practice with simple words to build confidence.

Its worth posting on the www.syntheticphonics.com
www.rrf.org.uk

bullitin boards for more advice

maverick · 07/06/2007 13:27

Dontknowmyarsefrommyelbow, 'IQ discrepancy' was the method used to diagnose your 'dyslexia' (the 'IQ discrepancy' definition where reading age is considerably lower than IQ would predict), but this has now been completely discredited.

'The diagnosis for many years was based on these assumptions: if a child has a serious reading problem, but normal or above normal intelligence, the child must have a special type of reading disability- 'dyslexia'. Children with low reading scores and low intelligence are supposed to read badly because they have low intelligence.' (McGuinness WCCR p134)

Presently, there is no test that is capable of separating out 'dyslexics' from other poor readers. Either all poor readers are 'dyslexic' i.e. 20+% of the English-speaking world or non are dyslexic.

Re. the fact that despite your 'dyslexia' you are successful academically and can read - please read this article from the RRF newsletter:
www.rrf.org.uk/newsletter.php?n_ID=156

Contact [email protected] if you'd like to know if there is a Sound Reading System tutor in your area.

frances5 · 07/06/2007 13:41

My husband did really badly at school and even though later on he went to university he only got a third in physics. His reading and writing skills made it really hard for him to achieve academically.

However he now is a really talented computer programmer and earns a very good salary. He has a fanastic technical mind, but failed GCSE English four times. He says that us doing Jolly phonics with our son has improved his English skills no end.

I believe that my husband and many others were victims of dysteachia. Education is like a house in that if the foundations are laid badly then it is hard to build on it.

A well built house, with no trees planted too close, or earthquakes will not suffer from subsidence. Saying that dyslexia does not exist is a bit like saying that subsidence never happens to houses.

SummertimeBluesuedeShoes · 07/06/2007 13:42

Nooka

I really feel for you and your ds.

I certainly would not advocate 'working' with your ds, but I would suggest that you at least buy the Jolly Phonics DVD and finger phonics books and CD

as i said, my ds learnt by himself just from using these three things, and us using games like the excellent ones suggested by Frances

It is great fun adn the kids love it - you on the other hand may be heartily sick of singing 'ants on my arm, a a a ' after a while

Dontknowmyarsefrommyelbow · 07/06/2007 13:49

Very interesting link Maverick,

I identify with much of it - there are words I chose to ignore or 'code' when reading (like the Russian names mentioned), these do tend to be words that just seem too difficult to hear in my head and seem to spoil the flow of my reading - if I don't think that I will loose the context of what I'm reading then I'll just ignore them! And French / Spanish / Latin at school just seemed impossible!

It's a shame IMO that the IQ test is no longer used as part of the Dyslexia diagnosis - surely this test provides important info on how to progress with a child? It would also remove the 'Dyslexic's are just middle class thicko's' debate?

nooka · 07/06/2007 13:50

Thanks for the advice. I have e-mailed Fiona and the RRF site. Interestingly ds's assessment was pretty much on the grounds of IQ discrepancy (well more accurately high verbal comprehension ability compared with much lower perceptual reasoning ability. Recommendation was for one to one support - including work on phonics - although they recommended Orton, which I think has been discredited.

nooka · 07/06/2007 14:01

dd did the ants on my arm thing at school - she loves that sort of thing, and will very happily do education type activities (and surprise surprise is doing wonderfuly at school, although she is also a September baby so has many advantages). ds did/does not participate, and I'm afraid I hate all those singing things maybe that's why ds has very high verbal literacy but can't read! The trouble is that many of the things you are suggesting (and thank you for the advice which I appreciate) appeal to younger children, but not to an eight year old (we did use to do sounds like eye spy when dd was younger for example). For example he really doesn't like picture books any more, but can't cope with chapter books, and the only things he will put any effort into are non-fiction books, where the sorts of things he is interested in are pretty much on the adult scale. It's a real catch twenty two, and I just wish I had had more time and conviction when he was smaller and I thought there was a problem, but was too busy arguing with the SENCO that he wasn't autistic to worry about his reading!

frances5 · 07/06/2007 14:01

I think that it was to be remembered that young children learn best by play. A child's "play" is their work. I think that five to ten minutes a day of working on phonics would make a huge difference. If you are short of time you could even play games in the car or get foam letters and make words in the bath.

I don't know the age of Nooka's son. There are several good synthetic phonics programmes out there. The most appropiate one depends on the age of your son. For example something like Toe by Toe is good for an adult, but five year old would find it as dull as ditchwater. Conversely Jolly Phonics might be considered babyish for an older child.

frances5 · 07/06/2007 14:10

Nooka, I can under stand how awful it must have been to have a SENCO saying your son was autisic when he wasnt. My son had a similar experience when he was a pre school. We later found out that he was partially deaf and not remotely autisic.

I believe that Ruth Miskin does a reading programme designed for key stage 2 children with more grown up books. I have never used it. The reading reforn bullitin board would also be able to point you in the direction of more suitable material.

You might find this link useful

www.promethean.fsnet.co.uk/

You can view the materials before buying to see if they are suitable.

www.promethean.fsnet.co.uk/imcd.htm

nooka · 07/06/2007 14:36

Thanks Frances,
To be honest it wasn't awful, just frustrating (my nephew is autistic, so I knew that ds wasn't). Interestingly ds's problems at that stage were pretty much resolved when he got glasses for what turned out to be quite poor long vision.
The suggestions sound very useful - I will investigate. I am aware that I may have sounded a little dismissive (sorry ) of your ideas. ds is eight, and very bright (in an absent minded professor type way). I think that he would learn best by play - but his idea of that is the playstation or solitary battle games which involve distributing his every posession around the room whilst he rolls about making fighting sounds - not sure how to tie that into reading! I have tried a few games and other things that have been recommended to me in the past, but mostly he ignores them and dd plays them instead (like Memory Booster) they just didn't seem to be at his level. The frustrating thing is that is is very very interested in pretty much everything, so would love to be a good reader I thik (but then I am a book worm, so would think that !)

Cadmum · 07/06/2007 14:39

I am lurking but very, very grateful for the amazing resources!

Thank you!!!!

frances5 · 07/06/2007 14:44

Don't worry, about dismissing my ideas. I didn't realise that your son was eight years old.

nooka · 07/06/2007 14:52

I'm going to check ds on the Prometheus site, and get one of their books - it sounds nice and straightforward, and something to do whilst I wait for some ideas for tutors.
If it works I'll send the info on to the dyslexic adults in the family.
Thanks Frances and Maverick!

It's interesting to go from one point of view to another over a couple of days, but lots of interesting research to be read (instead of the revising that I'm supposed to be doing!)

maverick · 07/06/2007 18:40

If you go to this page in the resources section of my website www.aowm73.dsl.pipex.com/dyslexics/resources_and_furt her_10.htm
you'll find information about every genuine synthetic phonics programme and resource available in the UK -and elsewhere. Those marked with a pink xx are suitable for older children /teenagers and adults.

HTH.

nooka · 07/06/2007 18:52

I didn't know that was your web-site - I looked at it earlier - looks great. Although it was the "Room 101" that worried me!

maverick · 07/06/2007 19:48

Ah yes, Room 101! If something is listed there then 'don't touch with a barge-pole' unless you've money to burn and time to waste
www.aowm73.dsl.pipex.com/dyslexics/resources_and_furt her_20.htm

kimi · 07/06/2007 19:50

Oh shit, does this mean I just can't spell then????

maverick · 07/06/2007 21:12

kimi, blame it on dysdidaxia

kimi · 08/06/2007 17:50

Will do
my 11 year old son tells me how to spell things

ShinyNewShoes · 08/06/2007 18:48

Maverick, I'm a little intrigued as to why you don't seem to value phonological awareness very highly? - From your room 101 link.

maverick · 08/06/2007 20:06

Re. phonological awareness

Phoneme awareness (PA: to be consciously aware that words are composed of discrete sounds that are comparable and manipulable) is the subject of much controversy and confusion. Poor PA is said to be the hallmark of dyslexia and those children who start school with poor or absent PA, or who fail to 'develop' PA alongside conventional literacy teaching, are deemed to have constitutional, phonological difficulties. Many 'experts' advocate PA training for all children prior to any teaching of reading in order to help overcome this brain 'glitch' that appears to be present in so many. This erroneous thinking has resulted in the insertion of a 'sounds only' stage (Phase One) in the new DfES programme Letters and Sounds.

Part and parcel of the 'phonological glitch' theory is the idea that all children are biologically programmed to recognise words as unanalysed wholes at first (termed the logographic stage) and then, as part of normal, biological development, begin to be able to break words into smaller and smaller units: whole words ->syllables ->onset and rime ->individual letters, therefore children need to receive reading instruction in this order too. Research in Germany (Wimmer/ Hummer) has shown that children do not go through a logographic stage when they are taught with the synthetic phonics method from the very start of reading instruction (RRF 45. p6) 'Students tend to perceive words in the way they are taught to perceive them. This appears to be the case whether or not they are taught in a transparent orthography' (Cardoso-Martens 2001) (Rice/Brooks p34) see- Chew www.rrf.org.uk/newsletter.php?n_ID=104

Phoneme awareness training is not a necessary prerequisite to learning to read and spell. Research (Wimmer et al. in Austria and Johnston and Watson in Scotland) has shown that when European children first enter school they rarely have any phonemic awareness unless they've had pre-school teaching of the alphabet (unusual in Europe but common in English-speaking countries). Phoneme sensitivity is innate as babies need it to acquire spoken language, but they are not consciously aware of this ability. 'In fact, no one needs to be explicitly aware of phonemes unless they have to learn an alphabetic writing system' (McGuinness LDLR p36) . People who have learnt to read using nonalphabetic scripts also lack phonological awareness.

The ease with which a child can be taught to listen and unravel the phonemic level of speech in order to link each phoneme with its written symbol, appears to be heritable 'Good/bad phoneme-awareness runs in families, just as musical talent does' (McGuinness WCCR p151) This unravelling is necessary because speech consists of co-articulated sounds blended into a rapidly produced sound stream.

PA is exhibited once again as a direct result of the teaching methods found in synthetic phonic programmes; it is the process of learning the letter-sound correspondences, translating the letters into sounds in words and vice-versa, that makes the phonemes explicit. '...the ability to manipulate speech sounds is a taught skill, not an outcome of cognitive maturation or exposure to language (Rice/Brooks p54) '(A)s their literacy improves it should again become an automatic process for literacy purposes and drop below consciousness unless it is actually needed to deal with an unfamiliar written word.'(Philpot RRF 3/12/05) For those children who lack any natural aptitude (due to normal genetic variation, NOT a brain defect) for untangling the phoneme level of speech, really good direct teaching of the alphabet code done first and fast on school entry, with plenty of revision, will enable them to learn the skills necessary to become good readers.

www.rrf.org.uk/newsletter.php?n_ID=33 Jennifer Chew discusses teaching phonemic awareness with letters

frances5 · 08/06/2007 22:07

maverick, why do you have various phonic games on you website if phonological awareness is not important?

www.aowm73.dsl.pipex.com/dyslexics/reso urcesandfurther_5.htm

I found the suggestions on your site really useful and my son loved the games.

Or have I misunderstood the term phonological awareness?

ShinyNewShoes · 08/06/2007 22:50

Hmm.
I have seen so many times the muddle left by schools following phonics programmes with pupils who don't have phonological awareness at even a basic level, and it's not pretty. IF a pupil really can't grasp how words are made up of sounds/phonemes, how does expecting them to pick up phonographic links as well help?
I see that you're a fan of the McGuiness materials and syntethetic phonics - fine, I'm just uncomfortable with the notion that there is a system that will work for everyone.
But don't want to hijack thread with this. I'm sure we can agree to differ.....

frances5 · 08/06/2007 23:59

I think the use of a programme like Jolly phonics develops phonological awareness. However these programmes need to be followed closely.

The problem is that schools think that they can use synthetic phonics as part of a mixed approach. Synthetic phonics is more than just a few Jolly phonic hand actions. Its teaching the children a way of thinking.

Prehaps the problem that some kids have is that their parents/ teachers are too quick to give them books. It is also important that children are not expected to read words beyond their knowledge of the code in the early stages.They have no other stragery other than guessing all over the place. Kids then fall into the trap of thinking that pure guesssing is how you learn to read. The kids who have poor memories fail to learn to read.

Children can still enjoy books with an adult, but they need reading material that they have the knowledge to cope with.

I expect maverick will give a better and educated reply than me.