firing on one cylinder - does it really matter?

[tigermoth]

I nearly posted this under the school reports at four, but it's not really about reports. More to do with motivation. Despite my optimism about my son's education, despite the success of a sticker/reward system I feel like I've come up against a brick wall.

I saw my son's teachers last week to discuss his progress in the two terms he's attended his new school The good news is he's improved in all areas of the curriculum and settled down well. The bad news is he's firing on one cylinder. He dreams and chatters his way though lessons, repeatedly ignoring teacher's instructions until they have to shout at him. Even when placed alone to sit, (a daily occurance) he often idles away his time. When told to do something he is an ace procrastinator.

His teachers (he has two) are clearly frustrated. He's not in the super genius league, so this isn't boredom with the easiness of the lessons. But he has ability that is not being channelled. They feel he could do much more, and they hate to have to keep singling him out and telling him off. I felt like handing out the gin when talking to them.

All three of us use similar tactics - reward systems (admittedly with some success), telling him we don't want to get angry with him, so why not do as he is told first time, not giving in if he ignores this, etc etc,. His teachers had no further suggestions for me. I asked if they had taught other children like this - they said a few, would he grow out of it? - they don't know - all we can do is hope. I said well, is his behaviour special needs them? They firmly said no because he chooses to behave this way. He knows what he is doing and he happily owns up when they question him. When he wants to, he can behave impeccably. It's just his lack of motivation and a don't care attitude.

I've been trying to imagine myself in my son's shoes - lessons aren't too much of a hassle - he can read, write and do sums OK - so why bother to do them well. What's in it for him? Why try hard and move from the middle sets to the top sets? He's not a brainbox anyway. OK, it's not fun to miss playtimes to finish work, but, hey, he can still chat to his friends in the lessons when the teacher isn't looking....

How do you convince a lively, happy 8 year old that trying hard is reward in itself? But just as importantly, should you? Do I really want him to become competive and results-driven? As a person he prefers to smell the roses. Though I do wish he would see the sense in obedience. However, despite the public tellings off from his teachers, he's not humiliated. He's popular with his classmates, so again, why should he change? When I was at school, aged 8 and pre national curriculum, we spent most of our time drawing pictures. My son reads, spells and does sums far better than me at that age. Does it really matter that he's not pushing himself? And has anyone had a child who's gone though this and later on buckled down?

Hi Tigermoth. I haven't got time to reply to this properly at the mo but I definitely think that school life on one cylinder is fine at 8. Apparently there's an inverse relationship between achievement as a child and success as an adult and I think there's every chance that your boy will knuckle down when he finds something that really thrills/interests him in the work/school line. I think it's no bad thing at all that he is able to be firmly and confidently himself in the face of his teachers telling him off. Some kids might feel pretty crushed by this kind of treatment.
I have some sympathy with your son as I too am pretty spectacular when it comes to procrastination and dreaming my life away. However, I find that I can work very hard with the best of them when it really matters. I've finally accepted (sort of!)that this is just the way I am- the type of character who is always vilified in girls school stories because she doesn't do things consistently but likes to "go bust" and run at things in a huge excited rush before either finishing or getting bored and sitting down for a LONG rest. Maybe your son is similar? He sounds very much my cup of tea and I must admit I'd think I'd be secretly quite proud of his refusal to dance completely to the teachers' hornpipe if I were you! It shows a lot of strength of character for an 8 year old.

Tigermoth, no personal experience as my ds is only 4.75, as you know. For me, I think (and I know I'm not there yet so who knows how I'll react when I am) I would probably not want my son to become competitive and results driven.

As you say, we weren't under the same pressure when we were at school although I do remember having to work for the 11+ but that was later on. School does seem to me to be pressure and exams these days but maybe I'm looking back on my own school days with rose tinted spectacles?

It sounds as if there are two parts to this: his behaviour and his motivation. Is there a middle way I wonder? By that I mean focusing on the 'won't do it first time he's asked' business and his behaviour rather than the work. Because I can see that this would be annoying for you and his teachers but if he's getting along reasonably well and doesn't want to use his untapped resources I'm not sure how you can make him!

Is he artistic as well as dreamy? Do you think he can work hard at something and apply himself when it's something he wants to do as opposed to lessons he is supposed to learn? If so then I think I probably wouldn't worry especially if he's reading and so on adequately. Sorry if this isn't much help. But maybe he'll turn out to be the next Damien Hurst or something and school just isn't going to do it for him atm

I also have an able 8 year old who is firing on one cylinder,although we don't have behaviour problems he just lacks concentration and some motivation.When questioned he will also add that if he knows he can do it why does he need to show the teachers that he can.He is at a school with lots of activities etc but still claims that lessons are boring;and I do have some sympathy with him but would definately be interested in advice on how to get him to achieve for its own sake.
I understand my dh was like this as a boy and pottered through school never showing what he could do until he got to 16 when he did a great deal better than expected and ended up at a top university, he says he always knew inside that he could do it but didn't really see the point until it mattered,if you get the gist.
I think that as long as they do enough to keep up it doesn't really matter as success at primary level does not always spell success at 16 or 18 or in later life,I can certainly think of several who topped the class at my junior school who sank without trace in their later school career.The most important thing is that they are happy and developing their social skills at this age,at least thats what I think.Nice to know I'm not the only one out there though!

Ha - isn't it noticeable that they are all boys who behave like this! I have got two of them. I think many boys will do just enough to get by while they get on with their own imaginary world. Does it matter? Not if they are getting by and occasionally do try hard at something that really interests them (usually involving sharks or dinosaurs. And maybe its typical that its us females, conscientious to a fault, who worry about it ...

Both my boys are like this too (aged 9 and 6). Every parents evening is the same - must stop daydreaming and get on with their work. They don't work very fast but don't tend to chatter or mess about with the other kids, they just do absolutely nothing (how boring must that be?). Friendly encouragement and sticker bribery have been the best motivators but they have missed more than their fair share of playtimes because they have had to stay in to catch up.

Hi, Tigermoth. Lots of hugs and G&Ts heading your way (virtually!). I read your post this morning and didn't reply straightaway, hoping I might come up with some inspiration! Sadly, no. You know, I think some kids, esp. boys as has been pointed on on this thread, are just like this. I don't have experience of parenting or teaching 8 yr olds, but my d.s is almost 7 and I can see him heading very much in the way of your son. And he is also bright(ish!), certainly not stupid, but a bit of a dreamer.

As others have said, when we were kids, we had a very different experience of school. Sometimes, I feel that our school years were so much better that those of our children. Yes, we know more now about education theory, about attention deficiency etc. etc. but we can all read and write and do sums so whats the big deal. Sorry, I'm sure many teaching colleagues will be a bit miffed here, but, I feel that pushing kids, at 8 yrs old, is not particularly productive.

Tigermoth, is your son actively disruptive in class? This is perhaps a different issue to being a day dreamer. I think if my kids were very rude or deliberately disrespectful, I would be concerned, but your d.s. doesn't seem to be like this. I'm sorry I don't have anything more constructive to add, but feel that lots of children are a bit uninterested in lessons (too busy being David Beckham etc.) but they do catch up later. And by the way, re testing etc. I just don't buy into it!

Lots of luck, oxocube

My ds no.1 was very clever at primary school and achieved great mark in first and second year at the academy. He has just finished third year where his marks slumped because he didn't concentrate on his school work because he is going to be a famous guitarist in a band that will be bigger than U2! After being initially very concerned at this I have decided not to burst his bubble. He is 15 years old and hopefully he has had a big enough jolt to apply himself. If he does not it will not be the end of the world. I achieved a degree at 40 and am now studying at Masters level.

Ds no.3 sounds like your son tigermoth. He is now 11yrs and is starting the academy after the holidays. Perhaps he will surprise me and really apply himself. I am not going to upset myself if he doesn't. As long as they are all happy and healthy does it really matter?

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tigermoth, my father was/is a dreamer and became a world famous successful scientist. I think it's probably important to separate the two behaviors of dreaming and chattering. The former isn't disruptive to the other students, while the latter is. If your ds isn't disturbing the other students his teachers may be more tolerant of his dreaminess.
My stepson (8) is a real dreamer and often I have to tell/ask him the same thing half a dozen times before it sinks in. His teacher for the last two years has been wonderful and really worked with him and somehow managed to work around his dreaminess and keep him from disrupting the class. The teacher he had before her was not so understanding and seemed to spend a lot of time disciplining/complaining about him. She gave him much the same type of report that your son got. I think the right teacher is really important and truly affect a child's appreciation of school at a very early age and for a very long time.

Well I'm not alone in this, am I?

Oxocube, you're a teacher aren't you, so I'm especially glad you recognise the predicament - not all education problems have a solution. I've always made a point of asking my son's school teachers for advice. I'm longing for one to say to me 'how funny, he's not at all dreamy/distracted with ME' then I can find out his/her secret and off we go! Unfortunately, the teachers and I usually see the same behaviour and none of us have come up with a great solution.

As long as my son is not being pushed to do things or being herded or rushed around, he can be lovely company, caring, good and really quite mature. On this front he really has improved in the last few years. The problem begins when
the pressure is on.

It's interesting to see so many of you saying don't push him. I agree, even though it annoys me that he is choosing to underachieve. I'd love him to start music lessons, have talked to his teachers about this, but fear that the boring necesssity of practice will put him off. I'll probably go ahead, with misgivings. And that makes me sad because I think he is quite musical. Yet the reality is that he tends to mess around in extra curricular activities of any sort - football, cubs, drama etc. Since I tried the reward system, he has made an improvement, so here's hoping!

I wish it was just his dreaminess that was a problem. Unfortuately the word 'defiance' was metioned more than once when I talked to his teachers. Sometimes when they tell him off, he laughs at them. He distracts others by chattering. He chooses to ignore instructions again and again and again. Although he likes to be liked (giving the teachers and I something to work on) he just too happy to go his own way. Oh dear, this sounds so negative. Since he's been at this school, his work, both in quality and output has got much better. He can now work in groups and unaided far more often than last year. And it's only been two terms. I think (hope) the behaviour problems will slowly get ironed out - they have to some extent at home. But the lack of motivation?

Now it's the school holidays, I feel I should be quite strict with him. Normally I would relax, but after this report, I feel I can't let procrastination and ignoring requests go by. Hope I'm not tearing my hair out after six weeks!

Just as an aside, I tore out an article I saw in the Daily Mail (it was left on the train I was in) about the footballer Rio Ferdinand. I quote ' his formative years were spent in .. a grim four-storey red-brick council tenement (in Peckham)...yet somehow this little boy was able to excel amidst this urban degeneration...he credits his mother and father for instilling in him sound, traditional values and raising him in a disciplined manner...'

Hollow laugher from me. I lived in the same block of flats and the family were neighours of mine. I remember Rio, same age as my son, kicking footballs in the courtyard.

Once I met my dh, we decided to move out of the block, because we wanted to give our children a better start in life .....

...and so you have. They're both getting a FANTASTIC start in life and sound like GREAT kids. They definitely have a superb mum and are very lucky. I really think it's important to remember that it's not always the quiet compliant kids who do well in the long term. Far from it in fact. We need some defiant people to direct the yes men!

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tigermoth, have you discussed music lessons with him? Whether he would like to learn an instrument, and if so which one, and how much practising etc would be necessary?

It may be that he doesn't want to do anything like that yet but it might also be a way into greater self-discipline, if he really wanted to do it.

Alternatively, what about singing? Of course there are scales and routine practising with that too but it would need less work and application to begin with (I think - hope no singers out there shoot me down in flames!)

I agree with scummymummy that it's good that he has the character to stand up for himself at school even if you wish he didn't do the things that made it necessary for him to stand up for himself - like ks's son, in another thread, he sounds like a very strong character, just "marching to a different drummer". Conformity is all very well, and makes teachers' lives easier, but we do need people who go off at tangents.

My DS1 has been in trouble at school, on and off, since he started at just 4 - he is 14 now and still does STUPID things purely because he never stops to think "is this a good idea?". He suffers from what you might call an excess of character - he thinks anybody he doesn't like can be treated with disdain - as he doesn't have the brilliance to sail through regardless, you can imagine how thrilled many teachers are with his attitude!

We have been trying to tone him down a bit for 10 years - personally I would prefer a bit of quiet dreaminess! Your son sounds like a lovely little boy.

Oh, Tigermoth, I have just caught up with Mumsnet after a few days away and was so sorry to read of this latest quandary. How frustrating to have a boy of such obvious ability who refuses to jump through the school's hoops. While I do agree with Scummy's comments about this showing great originality of mind, independence at 8, etc, it's clear that the teachers he has encountered so far have a more mixed view on this, and at the end of the day, what they say and put on record will have a big influence on his education after 11.
Janh is right to highlight that different types of music-making exist - I would not say your ds is a violinist or a pianist in the making...but he might well enjoy tuned percussion (marimba, steel band etc) or singing, which at his age does not involve a lot of technical exercises or practice. Why not ask at Blackheath Conservatoire about the general introduction to different instruments course that they run? Friends have raved about it, and it is very low-intensity, despite the venue name.
Finally, and I hope I won't make you feel sad after your efforts to get him transferred, and how well he has settled socially at his new school, but do you think there is any mileage in the idea that he might just not be suited to conventional state education? That he might do better in a Steiner-type setting?

That's a thought, Janh, singing lessons. Could be a way in. Yes, I have discussed music lessons with him and he knows it will mean regular practice. Sometimes he seems keen, other times I get a firm no. I think he's begun to fight shy of any extra curricular activities - I almost had to drag him to his first football lesson. Now he loves it and is OK to teach (well at least the coach hasn't complained ).

When he attends a class or club, he knows he is expected to behave,and there will be stormy times at home if his teacher tells me he has been messing around. So for him, it's easier not to go in the first place. I have to work round that and there has been some success - he's just joined a fossil collectors club and so far has been well behaved and enjoyed it.

The older he gets, the more his own person he is - I suppose this is true of all children. It's just getting a balance between letting him do his thing, while encouraging him to persevere with something that has no immediate reward.

I tend to think my son will never grow out of this non compliance completely - I can see me saying similar things when he is 14 like your son, Janh.

And thank you scummymummy and robinw for ponting out that defiance doesn't have to be a bad thing. And with regard music practice, robinw, we too will be using the reward system very heavily.

Marina, just read your comments. I have been thinking of the Conservatoire course that you mention. It lasts a year though, and you have to sign up for all of it, so it represents a big commitment. Still undecided. Like the idea of singing and percussion (very interesting what you say)- will see what course info I can dig out. Thanks!

As for moving him out of mainstream education, it's a thought and has crossed our minds, but I feel I just cannot force another change of school on him. He is happy where he is, the school is a good one, and there has been improvement - just not as much as we'd like! I know his attitude bodes ill for choice of school at 11, but he's only just hit 8 years, so I think we have to give him and his school a chance. However, I will read up on the steiner system, just to make myself more aware of the alternatives.

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I am thinking of your mother, way over the other side of the world, and her wise words about my son, bloss. It's been said before but I'll say it again, isn't mumsnet amazing! Thank you, thank you.

My son has no problem with the basic skills. His reading level is above average and his numeracy is fine by all accounts, too. I can see the sense in what your mother says and I suppose I am sort of doing that now, as well as continuing to introduce him to extra curriculr interests in the hope that one will fire his enthusiasm and we have take off.

It's not easy for me to admit that some problems don't have solutions. Do what you will, you can't mould your children into your idea of perfection. I guess that's a lesson I am learning.

I like Bloss's mother's comments very much. If you look at it from a different angle, that of the child who does jump through every hoop - do you know what happens? They get another higher hoop to jump through. Education now just seems to be one set of exams after another. The pressure my daughter was put under for her year 9 SATS was unbelievable - for a set of exams that don't actually affect HER future, but only the school's reputation.

It's like spinach - you eat it once just to be polite, and next time you get a bigger helping.

I think you have to grow into liking spinach as an adult: maybe you have to grow into wanting to achieve as well. Kids have other things to do with their lives in order to grow up well, rather than just aim as high as possible on someone else's academic scale.

Tigermoth - just to cheer you up, my mum still has my elder brother's grammar school report, which states that 'this boy will never amount to anything'.
She had cause to remember it a couple of years ago, when this same 'useless article', by now a Commander in the Royal Navy, was awarded an MBE.
My brother found motivation and success once he had found his niche. It's finding it that's the difficult part.

copper I was thinking about your comments last night:

I feel really uneasy about rewarding my son purely for good results at school. OK - if his teacher gives him 5 or more bonus points in a day, I give him a smiley face, but he wins bonus points for all sorts of things - good behaviour, trying hard etc as well as good work.

I am happy to reward for effort and being good. Don't believe in rewards for coming first. But, do others here reward for results at school? and does it work?

Mooma, thanks - yes and I know the opposite - high achievers at school who have never fulfilled their early promise.

I also don't believe in giving rewards for coming first.My son passed an official French exam this week and last night asked me if hewould get a present for passing -I'm afraid that the sraight answer was no.I spent a lot of time assuring him last week (before results came out) that if he hadn't passed not to get upset,that i know he tried his best(he did)that he can try it again etc etc Its too easy for kids to get the idea that we only buy presents or even love them if they come first/do well at school etc Somewhere along the line we will all fail at something and thats when we all need support more than anythingI am thinking of a surprise trip to Paris and eurodisney for the kids (so they can practise their French)but specific presents no.