firing on one cylinder - does it really matter?

[tigermoth]

I nearly posted this under the school reports at four, but it's not really about reports. More to do with motivation. Despite my optimism about my son's education, despite the success of a sticker/reward system I feel like I've come up against a brick wall.

I saw my son's teachers last week to discuss his progress in the two terms he's attended his new school The good news is he's improved in all areas of the curriculum and settled down well. The bad news is he's firing on one cylinder. He dreams and chatters his way though lessons, repeatedly ignoring teacher's instructions until they have to shout at him. Even when placed alone to sit, (a daily occurance) he often idles away his time. When told to do something he is an ace procrastinator.

His teachers (he has two) are clearly frustrated. He's not in the super genius league, so this isn't boredom with the easiness of the lessons. But he has ability that is not being channelled. They feel he could do much more, and they hate to have to keep singling him out and telling him off. I felt like handing out the gin when talking to them.

All three of us use similar tactics - reward systems (admittedly with some success), telling him we don't want to get angry with him, so why not do as he is told first time, not giving in if he ignores this, etc etc,. His teachers had no further suggestions for me. I asked if they had taught other children like this - they said a few, would he grow out of it? - they don't know - all we can do is hope. I said well, is his behaviour special needs them? They firmly said no because he chooses to behave this way. He knows what he is doing and he happily owns up when they question him. When he wants to, he can behave impeccably. It's just his lack of motivation and a don't care attitude.

I've been trying to imagine myself in my son's shoes - lessons aren't too much of a hassle - he can read, write and do sums OK - so why bother to do them well. What's in it for him? Why try hard and move from the middle sets to the top sets? He's not a brainbox anyway. OK, it's not fun to miss playtimes to finish work, but, hey, he can still chat to his friends in the lessons when the teacher isn't looking....

How do you convince a lively, happy 8 year old that trying hard is reward in itself? But just as importantly, should you? Do I really want him to become competive and results-driven? As a person he prefers to smell the roses. Though I do wish he would see the sense in obedience. However, despite the public tellings off from his teachers, he's not humiliated. He's popular with his classmates, so again, why should he change? When I was at school, aged 8 and pre national curriculum, we spent most of our time drawing pictures. My son reads, spells and does sums far better than me at that age. Does it really matter that he's not pushing himself? And has anyone had a child who's gone though this and later on buckled down?

When I was at school I was one of Tigermoth's high achievers who hasn't fulfilled her potential but I was NEVER rewarded for my achievements, ever. I was jealous of those who were. So, although I was naturally conformist to the academic life I didn't feel good about it - I felt I should have rewards! I do reward my dd for a good end of term report - she can choose a new toy. Having said that, she only really gets new toys at xmas and b/day otherwise. Don't we reward ourselves for something achieved in adult life?

Hi Tigermoth - I'm a teacher, and while your son is probably absolutely fine, and it sounds like he's a lovely kid doing really well, but in his own way, have you heard of something called dyspraxia? It's related to dyslexia which is more well known, but manifests itself as inability to concentrate, which can then lead to other problems. I'm not saying your boy has this, but it might be worth looking into it, as if he did have this then it would be easier to tackle the problem. I think there's quite a lot of info on the web about it. But please don't think that he necessarily does have this - it's just a possibility! It is fairly common (I have taught lots of people with this), and it is not at all an insurmountable problem. Good luck!

message withdrawn

And a cyber reward for general Mumsnet good eggery goes to......

.....CAM!!!!!!!!!!!!!

At last, a reward for something! Thank you scummymummy for responding to my whingy feeling sorry for myself posting by making me laugh as usual! I award you the cyber first prize for comedic talent.
Luckily, Robinw my little dd goes to an independent school which doesn't do sats so it is all about fulfilling the individual's potential and she tries really hard all the time. (so far!)

I was thinking this through again, CAM. As you say, don't we like to reward ourselves for something achieved in adult life? so why should a child get nothing for coming first? and at what age do you start rewarding in this way?

Anyway, I have never had to put my principles to the test, since my son has not yet come first in anything

If he did, to be honest we'd be just so estatic, that who knows what goodies would come flying his way? We'd be very open to his plaintive pleas. Though, I think I'd say to him it was purely for trying hard. If he blatently hadn't tried hard, we'd say the challenge was obviously too easy for him and probaly not give a gift. Just can't imagine this happening

Musica, I take your point and will search the net. Over the years I have had many conversations with his teachers and always been the one to ask if my son could have any recognised problem or whether his behaviour could be diet based. Not one teacher has said it's a possibility. I assume they would tell me if so, since they see the worst of his behaviour. Do teachers tend to blow the whistle on this? Should I take their`assurances to heart?

At home he's fine - just averagely naughty, I'd say.

Still confused about where I really stand on giving rewards for coming first. Like to think I wouldn't but can't swear to it.

Musica - do you think it helps to diagnose mildly dyspraxic children, or children with mild asperger's? My son is nearly 5, and we recently had a rough report from nursery - see other thread. Among other things at the interview, the teacher touched on future schools may consider referral to an educational psychologist, and assessment for such disorders. Can these really be 'treated', and if so, how?

I'm not trying to be funny here, I'm just not sure in what way such a 'label' would help my son, but that it would just give a teacher, school, and me too, a cop-out excuse for his bad behaviour.

(I'm not saying he necessarily does have one of these sorts of problems - certainly if he is 'grabbed' by a particular thing he can concentrate for long periods of time, even working on his own - though other times he flits around like a butterfly, and won't settle down to anything without a lot of encouragement and attention.)

Ermm.. I think that came out a bit too strongly. I do believe that Aspergers, ADHD, Dyspraxia, and everything else exists, and that for families and children with severe cases it can cause huge problems, and recognition of the difficulties can be a big step.

I just wanted to stress that what I'm talking about here is hypothetical MILD cases of these sorts of things.

What do you think, Tigermoth?

I've taught many children who seemed to be firing on one cylinder. Although it was frustrating for me, I also understood that not all children were motivated to write, draw etc. for themselves. However, IME, they generallyt do well by the time they finish Junior School. How many adults do you know who would sit down and write a story about a picnic in the woods because you asked them to? The 'labels' thing is perhaps a little tricky. IMO it is useful to help approach a child in the most appropriate way. Education is frequently aimed at the middle road, and it can help teachers to adapt this if they better understand the needs of particular individuals. From a schools perspective, a 'label' can bring the school additional funding which can be used to help the child in question, and other children too.

I was going to suggest dyslexia as an area to look at, since you have described my teen son to a tee!!

However,to show you there is light at the end of the tunnel, I went to the parents evening ready to do battle and was stunned to hear them describe this well-adjusted, friendly, popular boy who although he has it in him to do better, is doing just fine!! I did not recognise him from the sullen creature who lives in my house, and daydreamed his way through primary school and was completely unfocused and unphased by anything anyone said or did!!

There's something else you may want to check - his hearing. Sometimes that gets missed and can affect a childs ability in many ways.

The other thing is that I was absolutely amazed by my son the other night, we were looking at one of those complex maze patterns and he looked at it for a couple of seconds and said 'there, thats how you get to the centre' and just pointed it out, as easy as pie. So he has other skills too, which just need to be unearthed!

tigermoth, I have always been very firm about not giving rewards for good reports etc; have always maintained that getting the good report is an end in itself.

(This is partly because we have a selective grammar school here and I get VERY cross about the number of parents who promise the moon if the kids pass; I've never found out if a reward is still given even if the poor kid "fails".)

However - I undermined my own principle this year - DS2 did get a rather good report and he desperately wanted a "Bey Blade" (heard of them? If not, you will!) but had no pocket money left this month, so as a major one-off never-to-be-repeated special offer I bought him one (they're only £6.) I feel a bit guilty now but it's a long time till the next report!

I think it can help to diagnose a problem - not because it 'labels' the child, but because it can show you ways to help the child's specific problem. If you think about dyslexia, there are specific ways to approach education of children diagnosed with dyslexia - even mild cases - where if it weren't diagnosed the child may feel stupid or thick, and the teachers may well treat them as being so. The same is true of dyspraxia. Schools are much more informed about these now, and certainly the children I have taught have benefited hugely from teachers being aware of the problems and approaching them appropriately. I do understand your point about labelling, but I think it is much more productive to label a child 'dyslexic' or 'dyspraxic' than 'stupid' or 'lazy'!

Just asked my son what a bey blade is, so now I know, Janh!

As for schools labelling mild educational/behaviour problems I think there are good reasons for it, as musica has outlined. However, it also think it depends on who is doing the labelling. As musica has said and IMO also, schools can have a hidden agenda here. AS I understand it, the number of SEN pupils at a school affects ofstead reports, SATS targets and level of finance. So, I would go to an educational psychologist privately to get a second opinion. And what the educational psychologist says to you will not end up on a school report - another advantage.

Also, KMG, IMO mildly problematic behaviour at 5 years old may decrease naturally. Still very young to put a labels on things. My son, now 8, is much better behaved with me than he was 3 years ago. Or perhaps I have learned to cope with him better?

Kia, thanks for saying there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Actually my son's hearing has always been a bugbear. He had seen audiologists on and off since he was 5. Nearly had grommets fitted when he was 7. The very last hearing test he had pre-operation put his hearing within normal limits so the op was called off at the last minute.

According to Steve Biddulph, boy's growth spurts in particular can result in fluctuating hearing loss because the tubes inside the ear do not grow at the same rate. I really do think this is what my son experiences and yes, it must affect his concentration. But I don't think it's the whole story.

He needs the TV volume turned up higher than I and from time to time complains that he can't hear the teacher's every word, so has to guess. Needless to say, we have another audiologists appointment in October. The teachers are well aware of this problem and usually sit him near the front(to keep an eye on him as well!).

However, I know that my son also has selective hearing - offers of ice cream get heard far more easily than commands to put on his trainers. He used his not too good hearing as an easy excuse to teachers as well. Difficult to know where the excuse ends and the hearing problem begins.

Tigermoth, you could be talking about my own boys here. I've already said earlier in the thread how they are so slow and unmotivated at school and they also had (and maybe sometimes still do have) hearing problems so it does make me wonder if that could be a reason. DS2 failed his HV hearing tests so was referred and I asked for DD1 to be referred because he suffered on and off. I think in both cases it is just a build up of wax as they are definitely worse when they have had colds and their ears are a bit bunged up. They are also guilty of the selective hearing thing, particularly DS1 who tends to sit very close to the tv so that he can hear it (and see it when he won't wear his glasses).

DS1 was behaving really badly a few years ago and in desperation I took him to the doctors and found that his ears were completely blocked and he had an ear infection. This was something that I had previously never even considered as a cause for bad behaviour.

message withdrawn

Would a private tutor help?
If she is also bored with your home lessons, could you get some new resources from the web? Sorry if you've already done this.

message withdrawn

Hi Robinw, isn't it frustrating, all this not wanting to show the school their best side thing?

I considered home tutoring for my son, but have been put off because firstly, like your dd, he can achieve average in his subjects even without 100% effort, and secondly, I have read advice that states beware of home tutoring: If you pile on more work, especially in subjects your child does not like or is not good at, this can actually worsen the problem - they will be even more anti learning. Who likes having to spend extra time doing something they hate? I supppose the trick is to choose your tutor with care.

I wonder, do you think your dd is hoping you will home tutor again? Is this why she keeps saying she is bored? Do you think she holds out hopes of being taken out of school? Would it help telling her this is absolutely impossible?

If you decide not to home tutor - could you encourage your dd's love of learning in other ways - finding an out of school activity she excells at and really praising her for her achievements, so she experiences a real high for doing well.

Teachers say my son lacks confidence in his own abilties, so he switches off at a crucial time in his work and starts chatting. Fear of failure I suppose. Easier to coast along. I think the years of tellings off have left him feeling a naughty boy rather than a clever boy in the class. Even at 8 years old, as I remember from my school days, each child has a reputation.

I am really trying and find ways to boost his confidence but it's not easy.

message withdrawn

robinw- I wouldn't go down the private tutor route (having been one myself). I think they're good for cramming for a purpose (entrance exam, GCSE,s A levels etc) but otherwise I'd steer clear. Kumon Maths could be worth a try- she'd meet more people, but I'd go perhaps for other societies- where learning is less obvious. Is there some sort of natural history society, or art club? stagecoach?, french club?, museum group?, good readers circle at the library (I loved that when i was a kid) Local papers can be a good source- otherwise I'd check out the home education webpages- even if you don't want to home ed- they've got lots of ideas for fun educational activities.

message withdrawn