Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

[Foxy333]

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

I think what you raise here is maybe even a boys/ girls issue.

But, of course, we now measure schools n progress from starting points and I am more than sure the head of Townley might not like that!

I want to see inside the boys school to see how they are brought up to be sensitive, sympathetic, kind etc as well as clever!

I wasn't keen on the girls being let out to McDonalds and Nandos at lunch

Townley Grammar is in the top band for progress- well above average so I doubt the head does mind.

Piggywaspushed . 'Grammar school apologist' you make me sound like I have extreme views !

If comprehensive education has been so successful why after 40 years of almost 90% coverage in England/Wales do many people feel failed or dissatisfied by it.

The other thing that gets me is , the comprehensives that are successful are selective. This being whether though location, religion, or offering something better.

It is not possible to be successful by being a 'true' comprehensive school. This being a school that offers nothing different takes what comes to them without asking any questions.

Are the comprehensive schools featured on the Educating series any better than Erith, do they have top sets, university ambitions!

To me they just look the same.

Regarding the girl who went to Mcdonalds
The girl who went to lunch at Mcdonalds was taking part in taster day experiencing being a sixth former for the day ! Hence the reason she wore a black suit rather then the grey school uniform.

many people don't feel dissatisfied by it. In fact this , and other threads do make me see that the most dissatisfied people come from areas where there are not comprehensives , oddly.

If you asked parents in my town they would express high levels of satisfaction as the comprehensives are highly regarded.

I don't think apologist is a very extreme word! But the general public does not widely back a return to grammar schools as a general rule.

It isn't all about the most able, nor is it about 'top sets' which does seem to be an obsession of some. Education is for all. But the schools on Educating are specifically chosen because of the social conditions that prevail in them. educating Semi- Rural Bedfordshire would be a dull programme. And, yes, they do have top sets : it was referred to many times in the programme.

But, anyway, you have quoted me from the other thread!

Having watched last nights programme, I am now in favour of the grammar system, whereas before I was 'on the fence.' I don't see why the children that want to study, learn and do well should be held back by the disruptive behaviour that was seen in the secondary modern. Surely that disruptive behaviour exists in comps also where everybody is thrown in together? Having said that no child should have their education disrupted in that manner so I'm not sure what the answer is really.

“Surely that disruptive behaviour exists in comps also where everybody is thrown in together?”

What do you mean by “thrown in together”?

Sorry, badly worded. I mean where the students that want to learn, do well and progress are sat alongside students that clearly don't want to be in school and are causing disruption. My heart went out to Bradley last night but that drama class was ridiculous. I can't see how anybody could learn anything in that environment. I have only been in a secondary modern on an open day so had no idea of the teams of adults on walkie talkies 'removing students' on such a large scale.

I can assure you that teams of people rounding up “problem” pupils is not a feature of any secondary moderns I know. I live in a grammar school county. This shows a very poor example of how a secondary is run and it’s RI. They are trying to improve by excluding children - the tried and tested method! Comps might do this but again, none I know. I would suggest that only the worst schools do this.

My initial reaction to their round up policy was that the school was clearly not able to cater for their special needs children. The member of staff on the walkie talkie rounding up children was highly paid - what a total waste of an expensive resource. She was also unnecessarily abrupt when she interrupted the conversation the black girl was having with her (deputy) Head of year. I thought they were coming to an arrangement about what to do regarding the revision or detention dilemma and the bossy one burst in and intervened. She had been listening from another room and certainly undermined the other member of staff. I wasn’t surprised the bright black girl wanted to leave. The secondary had such a militaristic approach to everything I’m not surprised they take thousands of pupils out of lessons every year and exclude loads as well. It is clearly a school that does not know how to deal with ebd effectively. 25 children removed from classes every day is excessive.

Of course these children are annoying, disruptive and difficult. Some clearly should not be a in a mainstream school. The drama class had all the “bad” children grouped together - cue disaster! However, drama can be a good subject for disaffected children.

I was also cross about the grammar Head whingeing that the secondary mod children had 25% extra funding. I think the round up statistics tell you why this money is needed. One would wonder if the money is being spent wisely though. Some of these children really need specialist education and I was amazed the grammar school Head couldn’t see why the secondary school children needed more money. No money in the world alters family background but learning difficulties coupled with emotional and behavioural difficulties requires very expensive resources which they didn’t seem to provide. Clearly Bradley hadn’t had MC parents battling for his every educational need. He didn’t seem to see his mum at all. His mum and dad were not Mumsnet types!

When people complain about these children with behavioural difficulties, I wonder what they would suggest should happen to them after the inevitable exclusion. Wander the streets? Become drugs runners? Engage in petty or not so petty crime? This is what happens.

I would like to have seen a mixed sex grammar school compared to the secondary.

I went to a mixed sex grammar school and there was plenty bad behaviour there too. Disruption in class was so bad that I don't think I learned a thing in English in the third year and if I tried the teacher thought I was taking the piss. At least 3 boys were managed out of my form in the first year. Someone got 0 'O' levels and one girl in my class used to spend the French lessons in the loo for the final year and no one did anything.

The issue is about behaviour isn’t it, not ability. The programme has shown its poor behaviour (from all abilities) that sucks the resources and stops others learning. Most poor behaviours will be from children from difficult backgrounds or who are not engaged with education- grammars naturally selected less from this group and the schools then feel like a calm and safe oasis.

I said this before, but we need to select out by behaviour, not ability. There should be special segregated units with huge resources, to manage and support children who can’t or won’t behave. If they turn their behaviour around then they go back into mainstream. The rest (all abilities) will do perfectly well schooled together as classes can be set by ability, and it will probably be cheaper overall to run this system as the behaviour issues will affect so fewer children.

This is how to get parents to opt out of the grammar, faith or private school race.

I haven't seen the programme- do I understand that they were presenting a RI secondary modern as typical? Comparing it to a grammar achool?

Selecting by behaviour is even worse than selecting by ability. Are you seriously suggesting labelling children at the age of 10 and putting them into some sort of "sin bin"?

Well the alternative isn’t helping them is it? Or the other children, who are ignored while the teachers are constantly distracted dealing with them. This is why people with means to do so send children elsewhere.

I resent it being called a sin bin. It’s targeted intervention and should be a 2 way street. What’s the alternative, keep excluding these children so they eventually become so disillusioned and poorly educated that they become long term unemployed, unwell or even turn to crime? While those well behaved have to put up with them and disrupted lessons? What’s your vision?

You only have to look at why the girl from Townley Grammar was in detention.
This was for not doing /handing in homework as opposed to hitting people or pulling chairs from underneath people !

This clearly shows 'bad' behaviour means different things to different schools. It does highlight though the differences when posters declare they see bad behaviour in grammar schools !

like forgetting their P.E kit on purpose or not doing their Chemistry homework …...

Anyway bertrand isn’t it you who says they can tell from a reception class who will pass or fail the 11+? It’s ok to label at 5 then?

"This is why people with means to do so send children elsewhere."
Well, a few people do.

Am I right in saying that the programme was comparing a RI secondary modern with a grammar school?

"Anyway bertrand isn’t it you who says they can tell from a reception class who will pass or fail the 11+? It’s ok to label at 5 then?"

Yea I do say that. And no it's not OK. That's why the grammar school system is so crap.

I haven't seen the programme

WTAF.

620 messages in and BR just drops that one. Explains a lot though

The bright black girl though Bubbles , as you call her , who protested she 'just wanted to leave' went to the grammar school? I don't recall Chi Chi actually saying that.

I would too melamin. I bet Townley was the only grammar confident/ self publicising enough o let the BBC in...

"620 messages in and BR just drops that one. Explains a lot though"

For clarification. I haven't seen last night's.

As a pp remarked, this September Townley and Erith are to form a MAT, with the Head of Townley in charge! Erith is getting a new name and some changes to the uniform. Pupils in years 8 and up will be given new blazers. (New year 7s will have to buy all new uniform anyway. Hard on parents who'd been planning to pass on uniform to younger siblings though.

Chi Chi is a strong character who’ll be ok. She probably would have done better in a grammar or comp where there would have been other very bright girls to work / compete with. The grammar girl was an easily influenced show off and probably would have done less well in the secondary modern.