Who saw BBC 2 Grammar schools - who will get in " last night?

[Foxy333]

Watched this last night with interest. We're not in Grammar school area and generally I think it was / is a bad system that works for the top abilities but not for the middle and lower ones. However I've seen my daughter suffer in years 7 to 9 or a comprehensive from not being stretched and teachers concentrating on the most demanding pupils who need lots of help and ignoring the quiet well- behaved pupils who going to pass GCSE's anyway. Often some pupils disrupt the class and the whole class gets punished.

They only set them for 2 subjects and I've heard that's changing in future to one. so I see why a Grammar would suit some. But why cant all schools be good. Is it stricter discipline that's needed?

Felt for the children in the program, so young to face this divisive test.

I cried when I saw Joanita's mum's face. She struggles to read English herself. She works in Poundland in local the shopping centre, she clearly has kids crammed in with her oldest daughter having a bunk bed with her baby in Joanita's room. Can you imagine what that £300 a month meant to her, for years? She came from Ghana, she wanted to her her family a better life - in her home country her education stopped when her family couldn't afford it. She had to ask the camera man to read the bloody letter.

And yet there are posters on here CRITICISING this woman for trying? I'd like to find the tutor who continued to take her money.

And yet there are posters on here CRITICISING this woman for trying? I'd like to find the tutor who continued to take her money.

Yes. They should fuck right off.

can you name a single state school that says you have not inherited enough money to come to our school.

There are state schools out there which exclude pupils who don't have enough money, yes. At the high school I know of which is supposedly non-selective the cost of a boy's uniform is £178 plus shirts and shoes, plus sports boots/shoes.

It's more for girls because the shirts have to be an unusual colour which you don't get in M&S etc, the skirts and trousers have to have the school logo on and are only available from the academy shop.

To pay £178 for one set of school uniform (blazer, jumper, trousers) and PE kit is selection without a doubt.

I expected more self-awareness from a 10-year-old.

How many do you know? They come in all shapes and sizes. And when they are constantly fed the mantra that they will be nothing if they don't get into grammar school, it is not surprising if they delude themselves, and if others around them do , too .

Most 10 year olds believe the world is their oyster and that they can be whatever they want to be and go wherever they want to go, if they just try hard enough*. It actually saddens me that a 10 year old should learn in such a fashion to ditch that narrative.

• edit, in some part of the country only if they get into the grammar school, mind. As the children repeatedly told us and their parents tried not to admit they also believed.

I thought Joanita came across as a bright and confident. Most people would struggle with an exam after months of disturbed sleep. She should have been given special consideration for her circumstances.

Am negotiating this minefield atm as have moved country to U.K. last month. Daughter narrowly missed out on grammar place in exams and am appealing. My head is wrecked 😒🤞

You see, with all due sympathy, if you had moved to a non selective area, you wouldn't have had this minefield to negotiate...

@Mammysin I've sent you a PM

I just thought all the way through the programme that Joanita did not seem particularly bright, from her speech, the fact that she thought the exam went really well (though it clearly hadn’t), and her astonishment in not getting in when she was way off. I expected more self-awareness from a 10-year-old.

I'm not sure whether she seemed bright or not, my overriding impression was that she was very nervous and lacking in confidence. When she came out from the examination room, her mother specifically asked whether the test had been 'easy', and I got the impression Joanita agreed that it had because she felt that was the only acceptable answer. If she'd told her mother that it had been difficult, it would have prompted an uncomfortable line of questioning.

Equally, I think the expression on her face when she was told that she had failed was not astonishment at not having passed, but rather, a mixture of feigned surprise and genuine disappointment. I think she suspected it had gone badly but was most worried about her mother's reaction. She wanted to prove to her mother that she had tried her best, so wanted to appear surprised at not having passed.

brizzle

Then report the school.

It is statutory - ie the law - that
"Admission authorities must ensure that [...] policies around school uniform or school trips do not discourage parents from applying for a place for their child."

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/514978/School_Uniform_Guidance.pdf

IME the (comprehensive) schools which appear to have expensive uniforms either give uniform grants OR have well-run second hand arrangements.

However, it is partially public perception which drives 'not great schools wishing to improve their reputation' to create more elaborate / less basic uniform - as most private schools have very elaborate and exclusive uniforms, and as the public IME will often equate 'smartness of uniform' with 'school quality' ["Oh, School A must have great discipline - their children always look so immaculate in their uniform. School B isn't so good - it's so plain and you even see some of the girls with their uniform skirts rolled up. It shows what type of child goes there - i wouldn't want my child to mix with THEM"]

If we, as the public, can police, challenge and change these assumptions (a primary school near me is thought of as 'the best' simply because its pupils wear ties), then schools will not feel tempted to improve their public image through uniform.

“And yet there are posters on here CRITICISING this woman for trying? I'd like to find the tutor who continued to take her money.”

I applaud her for trying.
To the whinging opponents of Grammars, just remember they exist and are here to stay. If you don’t want for them for your children, then ignore them.

I for one and am grateful that mine attend one.

brizzledrizzle not sure what your point is. Are you saying that it is much cheaper to buy the school uniform and sports kit for any Grammar Schools than it is for any comp.?

"I for one and am grateful that mine attend one."
Good for you.
And fuck everyone else, eh?

Potico,

Some of us care about 'education' in a wider societal sense, rather than specifically for our own children, and thus are unable to ignore changes to education policy which we see as utterly retrograde and harmful to 'the education of society as a whole, in particular the most vulnerable'.

I therefore refuse to ignore the existence of secondary moderns, which will contain the majority of the vulnerable, deprived and those having SEN, and the presence of grammars, which cause the existence of secondary moderns.

(I also refuse to ignore the existence of bad comprehensives, and poor grammars that do not deliver the near-100% pass rates in GCSE that their selectivity should guarantee)

IMO the biggest single factor in whether a child will pass the Bucks test is vocabulary. The test is 50% English, 30% Maths, 20% NVR (there is no VR it is all curriculum based).

If a child is a sophisticated reader / has been read to from an early age / has a family where they are able to sit down together and chat etc then that makes a HUGE difference. Being a native English speaker obviously helps but both my children have people in their years who started in the early stages of learning English.

I think it’s a bit of a myth that it’s all down to tutoring - yes a good tutor can make a difference but the majority of people who set themselves up as 11+ tutors are worse then awful- many giving inaccurate advice as to how the test works / qualification/ admissions policies.

As a aside to one of the posts above none of the children in one of my dc’s year who thought the test was easy qualified- I think the subtitles and complexities of the language used can give children a false idea of how they have performed.

My children have many friends in both the local grammar and upper (indeed a fair few have siblings in both) - none of them give a stuff which school they are at - the Upper offers all the same subjects as tge Grammar + others. IMO it’s tge parents who mind deeply which school their children are at and it is those parents reactions which affect whether the child views them self as a failure.

I am lucky I know the Grammar and Upper in our town are both excellent and I would happily send my children to either. There are some Uppers I would be less keen for my children to attend and equally some Grammars!

Are you saying that it is much cheaper to buy the school uniform and sports kit for any Grammar Schools than it is for any comp.?

Are you saying that it is much cheaper to buy the school uniform and sports kit for any Grammar Schools than it is for any comp.?

It is cheaper to buy the uniform and sports kit for the Grammar School my children attend then it is to buy it for tge Comp I work in yes.

If you don’t want for them for your children, then ignore them.

I don't want secondary moderns but if my DC had not done well in the 11 plus they would have had to go to one.

How do you propose I ignore secondary moderns if my DC is in one?

Kitty,

Then as a member of staff, surely you have it in your power to report the problem of the cost of the uniform to your Governors, who have the responsibility to ensure that the law around school uniform is followed, and if no joy to them, to whoever administers admissions to your school?

I am always surprised by all the wonderfully inclusive grammar schools full of disadvantaged children and children with additional needs and with super cheap uniforms that seem to be everywhere but near where I live. (I live in the biggest wholly selective county in the country, by the way)

IMO the biggest single factor in whether a child will pass the Bucks test is vocabulary.

No one knows what will be in the Bucks test. All that is known is that it is no longer CEM

Who was it who used to play with the whole country school datasets for this type of thing? I would LOVE to see an analysis of the average %PP and %SEN for grammar schools in Kent or Bucks, compared with e.g. the comprehensives in a similar but non-selective county.

Then as a member of staff, surely you have it in your power to report the problem of the cost of the uniform to your Governors, who have the responsibility to ensure that the law around school uniform is followed, and if no joy to them, to whoever administers admissions to your school?*

And you assume I haven’t spent many years doing this?

Bertrand tge Kent test is still opt in Bucks is opt out so probably has a higher % of pupils sit it. Bucks has no comprehensive schools.

I’m not saying all grammar are bastions of social mobility I am talking about my experience but as is always the way on these threads any positive comments about grammar schools are dismissed .

MumTryingHerBest ok I was talking about CEM but a lot is known about the new Bucks test - that it will be curriculum based and not VR and I believe the % weighting’s are still the same.