Maths GCSE in Primary

[winterisstillcoming]

Hey everybody, I was wondering if you could help clear something up for me.

I was speaking to my SIL yesterday who told me her Y5 son is revising for his maths GCSE. He is at independent school. I said be careful only the first attempt counts. As a trustee of an Academy trust that has recently decided not to put students forward early for this reason, I thought I knew what I was talking about. Apparently not according to my SIL.

So was she correct, and is it an independent school thing that students are allowed to resit? Which puts my Trust's students at a disadvantage??

She was so bloody patronising too. And she got my nephews GCSE text books out at a family wedding.

I don't think people realise what a rich resource UKMT provide. They absolutely provide a challenge that is far harder than A levels. They take students up to the level of being able to compete internationally, with very little A level maths being needed.

shop.ukmt.org.uk/ukmt-books/ has some brilliant books. Start with the challenges and the First Steps for Problem solving for very bright early secondary, then as they get towards Intermediate level, the Number theory book is really good.

You don't need to have done a GCSE early to be on the UK team. GCSE maths is inconsequential for bright mathematicians.

Degree level maths. What does that actually mean? Different universities teach maths to different levels and teach different courses. What if they do things quickly, get their A levels then apply to University but don't have enough to get an Oxbridge offer? Do they do a degree at a different place? Do they live away, live at home, have peers?

Depressing for you maybe, not for them

RubiaPTA -Then past that degree level

So you think secondary schools should be teaching degrees?

The normal path just all at the childs rate

So your suggesting an individualised learning approach for every child?

Can you suggest how that can be facilitated with a year group of 240 DCs?

"Depressing for you maybe, not for them"

Are you sure? I don't know much about maths, but it sounds soul destroying and completely pointless. Surely there's more interesting maths than that? The mathematical equivalent of writing a play and putting it on like my Englishy child did in year 8...

maybe he enjoys learning for his gcses. don't worry about what the others are doing..... just concentrate on your own task. we did ours in year 9, so started in year 7. gcse maths isn't that hard. it's not going to turn him into a child genius, its a gcse.

Depressing for you maybe, not for them

Let's say for argument's sake there are 35 broad topics of maths. GCSE syllabus requires knowledge of 8 of them, A Level deeper knowledge of the same 8 topics plus a further 3. Further Maths A Level adds on 2 more topics.

So you genuinely think that the best thing for a gifted child is to race through those 13 topics, rather than being introduced to any of the other 22?

THAT'S what is depressing.

Oxbridge don’t want them to be taught degree maths early.

Not every child is cookie cutter and you have allow your child to play to their strengths whatever they may be. To not to them would be depressing

But it is "cookie cutter" to follow the curriculum like that. Just cutting out the cookies quicker than the others.

No child is cookie cutter.

What hasn’t been discussed yet on this thread is the child who sits GCSE in primary and turns up at a state secondary expecting to do A-level (ignoring the issue of having to stretch it over several years). When and where will they be doing A-level? It would be pretty unlikely for their Y7/8/9 etc maths lessons to coincide with A-level lessons so they won’t be taught A-level in a class with pupils of a similar ability. The most likely outcome is that they’d be given a textbook/ipad, told to sit in their Y7 classes and be expected to teach themselves. This does not strike me as a great mathematical or social experience.

I do know people who were gifted mathematicians and simply learning the mechanics of high school maths was not very interesting for them. For them, finding interesting problems to solve was the fun things, and the more challenging the question, the more fun it was.

There are on-line resources which are far more interesting for young gifted mathematicians than taking GCSEs or A levels early. The UKMT is good, but also check out the Art of Problem Solving - they have videos, online classes, and textbooks which are more interesting and challenging for young mathematicians (I have no affiliation, just have used some of their books in the past). They go off piste in the younger year books (Beast Academy) and instead of just focusing on worksheets and the boring mainstream curriculum, do have 8-9 year olds understanding binary and translating numbers into binary, etc. Fun stuff.

Here is a link to their main site
and
here is a link to some of their you tube videos where they are going over Olympiad type problems.

The UKMT stocks some of their books, which are really well written and more challenging than the normal curriculum.

do know people who were gifted mathematicians and simply learning the mechanics of high school maths was not very interesting for them. For them, finding interesting problems to solve was the fun things, and the more challenging the question, the more fun it was.

Exactly. Just following the GCSE syllabus is incredibly narrow minded and poor teaching. Easy for the school mind. And parents get the gloat 'My 10 year old is doing GCSE.' So school wins, parent wins, child.... no.

A very good mathematician with a strong grounding in Maths and guidance can learn the syllabus for GCSE and A Level in no time at all. If someone want to go to university early and do Maths then they should take GCSE and A level early. However, in my opinion, I would rate someone who goes to Trinity College at the right age higher than someone who goes to some low ranking universities at a younger age.

If they don't to go to uni early, there is so much more interesting Maths out there to do for fun or the kids can take serious competitions. They even have the Primary Maths Challenge and the Primary team challenge to cater for primary kids. I would also recommend the serie Unleash the Maths Olympian In You, which leads the reader all the ways from young age into the end of secondary school.

I cannot imagine the thinking of a parent who wants their child to go to University early. It's insane.

Art of Problem solving is great

I've not seen that one GHGN.

So if your child chose to learn GCSE maths and asked you to take the exam, you'd say no till they're 16?

RubiaPTA I'd ask them why they want to sit the exam.

I wonder how many primary kids skip home and ask if they can sit GCSE maths. I would imagine most primary kids don't know what GCSEs are unless they have older siblings.

So if your child chose to learn GCSE maths and asked you to take the exam, you'd say no till they're 16?

A primary aged child who was a gifted mathematician would not CHOOSE to do boring the topics needed to do GCSE - they'd be desperate to do the much more exciting maths. So any child that did say they wanted to do the GCSE would only be doing it to please their parents and/or teachers.

Aside from the fact that it often leads to all sorts of problems further down the line...

Ah I see so you just don't realise those children exist

Ah I see so you just don't realise those children exist

Gifted kids whose interests just so happen to correlate exactly with an exam board syllabus.... no of course they don't you daft bugger!

@BertrandRussell "I cannot imagine the thinking of a parent who wants their child to go to University early. It's insane"

I cannot imagine the thinking of a parent who wants their child to stick out like a sore thumb and be unable to fit into a standard school environment. But that's the hand some people are dealt - they didn't foresee it, they didn't choose it. Most of them are trying to do the best they can for their kids.

@GHGN "I would rate someone who goes to Trinity College at the right age higher than someone who goes to some low ranking universities at a younger age"

Hardy wouldn't have discovered Ramanujan if he shared your view.
I would assess (and have assessed) them both. Frequently the results are not what you would expect.
I've also assessed a few IMO medallists. They were not exceptional. The common feature was that they had gone to very good schools in or near the capitals of their respective countries.
I've seen colleagues consign CV's to the bin because they weren't oxbridge/imperial. I take the view that most people with a first are worth an hour of your time. Talent lurks in unexpected places.

I don’t think Ramanujan would have needed to take his GCSE revision guide to a family event.

Exactly the same as my “gifted” in English child. More reading, different types of writing, more finding out, more talking to people about books, more entering competitions, more going to see plays, more writing plays and putting them on.
Absolutely agree. There's so much out there in all subjects to stretch and challenge bright students that doesn't mean keep striving for the next exam.

What's more academically abd holistically enriching:
Learning to do a 'GCSE Evaluation question for paper 1' or reading a range of genres and broadening their understanding of texts?
Reading 2 non fiction texts and doing a question 2 comparison from GCSE, or studying the development of rhetoric from Aristotle to the present day?
Reading a range of literary criticism about the poems studied in y7 to deepen understanding of the same poems studied at degree level, or making notes on a love and relationships anthology so they can rote learn some quotations for the GCSE exam.

I say this assuming other subjects are similar to English in that not all the good stuff is actually on the GCSE spec