Private School and parent on benefits

[Villagreg73]

My ds is about to leave state primary and start private school. I'm a disabled single parent and ds school fees paid for by a generous school bursary and a great scholarship from a scientific charity because of his understanding of the subject. He's not especially gifted though.
To those trying to find a way to send their children to PS it is possible. Keep trying. Armed forces and trade organizations can often help. Large industrialists have educational foundations.
Apply and hope. Even a 15% discount from any source could be enough.

“There are definitely less expensive extras at dd's private than many state schools”

Because you have already paid for them in the fees.

“Plus the wide range of extra curriculars, included in fees, saves money you might otherwise spend on them at home.”

How can it save you money when you have already paid for them?

Most independent secondaries will offer a small number of 100% bursaries which are means tested. To qualify for the full 100% income would have to be low - some schools quote figures on website of around £16k so this could well be benefits. To qualify a child would have to pass the entrance exam and possibly to perform very well if there is a lot of competition for bursary places. Often such candidates can also qualify for help with trips and uniform too.

It's interesting, because many schools have lots of applications for bursaries, but they are mostly from the middle classes who would be hard pushed to afford the fees. Many schools don't have many applications from those whose families are fully on benefits or from low skilled backgrounds. This is because many such families don't know about the bursaries and also because people often exclude themselves by deciding that their kids wouldn't 'fit in' or 'it's not for the likes of us' - schools are very keen to genuinely widen access and not just to the middle classes whose professional salaries aren't enough for fees. Often few families on benefits apply and there are certainly more that could get bursaries because their kids could pass the exam and sometimes pass it at extremely high levels.

I think OP is trying to reach out to families on benefits and to make them aware of the possibility.

Is it very hard to be such a child? I have seen it, and I think it varies. For some children, their background experience and family is very very different to that of the majority of the Independnet school they will attend. Where values and attitudes are hugely different and especially if someone has a very disruptive family life, it can feel there is a huge gulf and children can find it hard to relate to those in the school, plus feel excluded from people at home who might see them as 'traitors'. These problems are more likely if the child has applied due to encouragement of someone outside the family and if the family don't really support the application and school and if the child feels a really strong commitment to the family and is suspicious of the school and the people within it.

I have also seen children from very modest backgrounds absolutely thrive. Often, someone in the family has had real aspiration for their child who has been highlighted as able, and has done a lot to find out about opportunities and to go through the application process. Even if the background is very different, there can be lots of support and pride in the success of the child.

Regarding other children and parents and money issues......well, I think that children are less interested in money and background than adults are, and children make friends based on who is fun to be with. In the younger years, not being well off might mean not going on some of the optional residential trips - but not everyone goes anyway. If day trips are included as part of the bursary, there shouldn't be a feeling of exclusion. When it comes to going to parties and similar, most kids or parents don't notice or care if a small gift is given, and most children are happy to go to any kind of house for a social event. Whether living in a smaller house or the less good part of town makes parents or children feel inferior is a personal thing and down to self confidence - can be an issue, but doesn't have to be. Perhaps it's easier for a well educated low income family to be confident and hold their heads high, than it is for a family from a background that feel very very different?

As kids get older and have more of an independent social life, perhaps very limited access to funds has an impact....so not having £10 to pop out for coffee or £20 for cinema and pizza might make joining in harder.

The stuff about holidays and lifestyles and cars.....some people feel small about those kind of things, but others don't and actually most well off people barely notice and don't judge or care anyway.

All that stuff about Prep parents paying for teacher presents, book days, etc etc are fortunately much more a prep-primary thing. It's often the 'newly arrived' or newly able to afford independent school people who are keen to have all new uniform and to go on every residential trip anyway, and those who have had generations of Independnet schooling who are first in the thrift shop for second hand clothes or driving an ancient car.....but again, they have the background which allows them not to bothered by flash stuff and what other people think. For those who have never had this stuff or the educational background, or the jobs and who live a very different life, it might be much easier to feel low self esteem over these things.

Bursaries can be great and they can change lives. Schools love it when someone from a disadvantaged background comes into the school, thrives in lots of activities and achieves a pile of great results and goes off to a great uni and onto a top career. It is possible, and what a great thing to offer.

Of course bert. And naturally the fees are higher than similar private schools that charge separately for lots of extras. And imo that's far more inclusive for dc on bursaries, no worrying about expensive top ups and no standing out from the average fee payer in terms of what club etc they join.

bert I'm referring to dc on bursaries. Eg I can't afford to pay for dd to go kayaking or climbing weekly at the nearest public venues unless she was to give up something else. So they were an occasional treat. But she can absolutely do them as an extra curricular for no extra cost to me at school. And of course for some dc any extra curricular at all is an occasional treat, but on a bursary they can take part.

On the issue of fitting in. At my DC's school there are boys on full scholarships. They are admired for their smarts or because they are funny or friendly or because that are good at cricket .Just in the same way that any boy is judged by his peers. I don't think that social background is relevant to the teenage boys I know.
As far as trips and uniform are concerned I am not sure what happens at this school as far as scholars are concerned but I have always bought second hand where possible and my son's friends are mainly wearing the same level of suits/ shoes/ coats as their friends in the local state schools.i have never bought world book day books or paid for dressing up outfits , we just make do with stuff from home with maybe £3 or £4 pounds spent in Claire's accessories or a charity shop. Likewise , the children don't go on every trip on offer or take up every extra curricular.most of the boys come from families where paying for this education is a huge financial stretch so although, yes, we are reasonably well off to afford this luxury for our children we don't all fly around in private jets or holiday on our yachts.

'Standing out like a sore thumb' - struck me as a particularly unpleasant thing to say, and exactly the kind of reason people with bright kids on benefits might not apply. Fortunately, I think people with such views are small in number. They are especially likely to be small in number at the very top and most expensive independents, because greater affluence (and especially generational affluence) seems to result in less snobbish attitudes. Perhaps in the bottom end, cheaper independents there will be more parents who are very keen to separate their children from those of lower income - those who themselves are only just able to afford fees or for whom it's a new thing, so are more in the look-out for what everyone else has and in making judgements about others. Such schools though, tend to offer far fewer bursaries of sizeable amounts, so luckily children with full bursaries are more likely to be found in the larger, more affluent schools, where petty-mindedness is less frequent and where the schools teach their children to be aware of how fortunate they are.

This is because many such families don't know about the bursaries and also because people often exclude themselves by deciding that their kids wouldn't 'fit in' or 'it's not for the likes of us' - schools are very keen to genuinely widen access ...

This.

(But no one believes me.)

I do wonder if disparities in family income are harder to navigate at day schools where family background is more visible in day to day life. Doesn’t appear to influence pupil friendships at boarding school. (Though some parents form their own tribes.)

I have found that background was irrelevant, and agree with the post above about how funny they are, if they are fair and a good friend, how they perform, if they are helpful, their personality.
Those from the sink estate are treated no differently than their peers from rich overseas children and all the types in between.

I worried when the new no school uniform came in, as previously it was just black and white that you could buy anywhere.
No expensive uniform at all, in fact my single parent on benefits friend paid more for her dd P.E kit than we did for uniform.

I needn't have worried as they all wear the same type of jeans, t shirts and hoodies, they really don't bother.

I could never invite anyone to our house for example, partly due to how poor we were but also due to alcoholic parent and being unable to know if it would be OK or not on any particular day. The stuff about holidays is just an example of how little I knew about their world and how difficult it was to access it.

I socialised with friends who did not attend the same school and did part time work for money, babysitting etc no one else at school was doing that. My parents didn't go to sports day or art exhibitions, didn't go to meet the head at the sherry party etc. It was just a different world to mine, by sixth year pupils were driving their own very fancy cars to school, we didn't have a car, I walked to school. It was a lot of little things every day.

Was it worth it for you epic? (Perhaps it’s too soon to tell?)

It was a good school but I would have really struggled if I hadn't had friends outside of the school.

chocolate that's very much my experience.

I know that to an extent dd like me is subject to incorrect assumptions about her background being a lot wealthier. Which probably would have helped at the type of snob value school mentioned. But I honestly don't think at her school it has any bearing.

I think some of the issues with bursaries and very low income could be solved with more outreach. Dc that have barely seen life further than the confines of their estate can hardly be expected to walk into huge, wealthy, imposing buildings, full of wealthy people and perform to the best of their ability, let alone feel confident they fit right in. Even if it's the type of school that they could fit in at.

Dd's does quite a lot, especially at the nearest state schools and particularly those in more deprived areas. Of course they don't cover the entire catchment, but unless they could offer needs blind it wouldn't really offer more opportunity.

Glad for you OP. But just a word of warning on bursaries. My DS gets a small bursary at a state school (sixth form). This has made a real difference and covers transport, some uniform, music lessons, subject materials and so on. But it is subject to attendance - to the extent that being late to one lesson or missing assembly (because timing of lessons varies day to day and is very hard to follow), results in him losing almost £200 from the bursary very time it happens. We live in fear of him forgetting to sign into private study or being late due to timetable or tutor changes (he is not actually skipping lessons). Other schools might have similar, or academic/music or sport standards that have to be met. I can see why, but the pressure can them feel different to their peers that are at school without the bursary.

I haven’t heard of such a punitive system at any independent school, colder. They are obviously conditional on a child continuing to perform at an acceptable standard - but there’s no unusual pressure and recipients aren’t expected to be better behaved or more responsible than any other pupil.

I gather scholarships (sports or music, say) come with more strings attached.

Hi Grauch, yes it is punitive. It is obviously set up to make sure students don't take the bursary and not attend/achieve as tgry should, which I understsnd. They take 1/6 of bursary away for every incidence of non authorised absence and after 6 unauthorised absences would lose it all. But that rule was probably set when the register was taken once or twice a day and intended to prevent full or half day absence. Nowadays with electronic lesson registration, a single 'late to assembly' or private study absence counts as an absence for bursary. They are a very strict VI form so can't go home in frees and have to sign in for private study at certain times. My DC does music which means using a different room and is not registered so I get emails weeks later which I have to track back and unravel to get bursary reinstated. I am sure it is just a quirk at that school and not to detract from OP's lovely thread, but do be prepared for the accountability that a bursary brings. Especially relevant to older DC who might have more scope to miss the criteria and maybe cause financial implications.

It'sCold, what a very odd system. I have never heard of anything like it and think it's extremely unusual.
If I were you, I would write to ask for clarification and to explain. The difficulties the current system is creating. Schools do not want to remove bursaries which then drive families into poverty.

And regarding there being certain conditions for bursaries, they are usually subject to yearly financial review - if circumstances have significantly improved then a bursary can be reduced, but the funding is there for the duration and assumed it will be needed for the duration when it is offered. Scholarships (non means tested) can have conditions such as representing the school teams etc, but bursaries usually don't. There might be a general clause about continuing to make good progress, but a bursary wouldn't be withdrawn due to mediocre performance. Schools don't want bursary holders to live in fear.

I think Epic's experience shows that it is possible for some bursary holders to feel very different and out of place. The more different their life is to that of the majority of pupils, the more that is likely to be the case. I think it's fairly uncommon, but it would be possible for a child to come from a family with no books and from a schools which never gives any homework, and from a background where no-one has ever worked or expects to work and where their values are very very different to those of the majority of families in the school. Not going on big holidays etc might be fairly common, but if your background means you have never travelled outside your city or been taken to a museum or out for a meal and that Les things aren't going to happen, it would be possible to feel that the gulf was insurmountable. And it would be hard for schools to overcome that, because much of a child's life is made up of time not in school.

I guess some children and families feel these kind of things are more of a barrier than others do. And I agree that boarding schools perhaps make it a bit easier because there is less day to day impact of home.

It's the same issues as trying to attract children from disadvantaged backgrounds to uni. The children and their families often feel too different or are sure they would be too different and the whole prospect is just too terrifying and outside of a comfort zone to be seriously contemplated. People can disqualify themselves, when they are perfectly qualified in academic terms. Perhaps a bit more mentoring and support would go a long way in these situations. Schools with big bursary pots who might give lots of big bursaries might manage this, but most who give few 100% bursaries try to be welcoming, but probably aren't geared up to do the serious work which is needed in advertising, recruitment and reassurance and making the children feel comfortable on arrival and through the school. It's difficult but worth it.

We got offered a 50% bursary for DD for a selective prep school when she was 7 but even cutting to the bone we just couldn't do it. However she's doing very well in the state sector so I am kind of relieved now we didn't struggle through it as we may well have had to take her out if it reduced or fees went up. It was hard at the time though

Good point about contacting the school Wombat, but he's in Yr 13 and the end is in sight. .So while, as a lone parent, I'm v.grateful for the bursary, it has made us both 'feel' poorer. It is a high achieving state school in a generally wealthy ares and they have a very brisk attitude with parents. If I ever do contact them about anything, I feel as if I am being told off...that is just the sixth form office and admin....individual teachers are a bit more approachable. Just the culture there....might have been better going private!😀

Schools with big bursary pots who might give lots of big bursaries might manage this

It is mildly frustrating that the schools with the most money to use in this way are likely to be perceived as the most exclusive and intimidating. (Because grand and rich and ancient.) When in fact - if, say, 20% of pupils have some level of bursary then it’s pretty normal and unremarkable. More ‘local’ schools with money for perhaps one or two might be seen as more accessible - but then the bursary recipient is likely to be more visible and ‘other’.

I am sorry. As OP. this thread is to tell parents that the help may be there. You have to get use to being told NO a lot but it's there. A lot of other contributions are muddying the waters. Thank you for your input but parents from all backgrounds it is possible

Yes it is possible but its a shame there are so many barriers and that such a level of determination and resilience to hearing 'no' or reasons why it might not be a good idea have to be battled through first. Its not surprising that so many families with very able children, but from more disadvantaged backgrounds either never hear about opportunities or are sure it wouldn't suit them or feel finding out and visiting is even too daunting.

Op, what do you think schools can do to widen access? What do you think is stopping those in similar circumstances to your own from going for it?

And OP, not sure what kind of contributions you were hoping for from thus thread. Do you just want people to come on and say 'yes - OP is right and there are lotsnif bursaries available' or do you just want stories from those who have had such bursaries and everything has been fantastic?

It would be great to hear those stories. However, as MN is a discussion forum, your post throws up lots of questions and issues about why people don't know about bursaries or what prevents them going for them, as well as issues about what it's like to be a 100% bursary holder from a very different background - all valid points I think, and not muddying the water really.

Clearly there have been people on here who haven't been aware of 100% bursaries and think schools exist only to squeeze max fees from every parent - let's hope this thread makes some parents decide the whole issue might be worth looking into for their child and more bursaries can go to children who really will benefit and not just those who have a state grammar or great comp as their alternative - the squeezed middle.

Here in Birmingham we have the King Edward VI foundation which includes a number of super selective grammars and two highly selective independents which offer bursaries up to 100% based on income.

My daughter is on a bursary ( although not 100%) and my son is at a grammar. For parents on benefits an 100% bursary would probably be the best option. They are given free transport, free meals and free uniform. I’m not sure what’s available to FSM kids in state schools but doesn’t free transport usually depend on you going to your nearest school, which a grammar may not be?

There are way more compulsory trips at my daughter’s school which are all included within the fees - so free if you’re on a full bursary.

In terms of fitting in, that’s more complex. Although if you’re comparing independent with grammar you will get similar issues at both.

Well this thread has been a complete eye opener! We are in a state-only county so the issue of private school doesn't come up I only read about it on MN.

It does seem though that the situation varies quite dramatically between schools, in terms of costs, affluence etc. That means though that the opportunity for social mobility level is very good in the UK. I wonder do schools publish stats regarding how many 100% scholarships they offer?