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Education

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Alleyns - diversity

76 replies

happybunny3 · 28/01/2018 20:07

Hello. My DD has just sat the 7 plus (awaiting results) and since then I’ve heard lots of stories about a lack of diversity at the school. Don’t know whether to raise this with the school - it’s clearly going to annoy them whilst they are busy trying to make their selections - but I don’t want my DD to be put at a disadvantage, particularly as I didn’t tutor her or engage in long-term preparation like most seem to have done. I naively thought we would see if she could get through on her own merit. She sat another assessment where she just missed getting through to 2nd round (60 applicants for 15 places and they invite back less than half) and now I realise that it’s highly unlikely we will get Alleyns (135 applicants for 24 places!) Feel torn as to whether to contact the school to discuss my concerns or just resign myself to the fact that there will be way too much competition and that schools don’t mind tutored kids as it makes their job easier. Thoughts anyone? What would you do in my situation?

OP posts:
Firefox1066 · 05/02/2018 13:02

DullandOld ....That might be what YOU think. Thankfully many others do not.

DullAndOld · 05/02/2018 13:11

sorry was I stating the obvious?
Honestly, people want their children to go to selective academic hot houses in rich areas, then whine about "diversity"....

happybunny3 · 05/02/2018 13:23

Wow. Dull and Old. Perfect username!

OP posts:
happybunny3 · 05/02/2018 13:28

There are plenty of selective academic hothouses in rich areas that do not have a diversity issue. It is not a whine but genuine concern and discomfort expressed by people who want the best for their kids but don't want to feel excluded or made to feel that they don't be long. Money is no problem for us. It's the likes of you. But there is a little point engaging with someone who will never see it from our point of view.

OP posts:
DullAndOld · 05/02/2018 13:31

really well your username makes you sound air headed and thick.. Just saying, if you want to hurl insults based on user names.

Firefox1066 · 05/02/2018 13:50

DullandOld The fact you see it as "whining" illustrates an attitude that I would characterise as rather regressive. Ho hum...

AnotherNewt · 05/02/2018 13:56

They maintain their boy/girl 50/50 by using a sex quota, so your boy might be 'supplanted' by a girl. That's why I mentioned it - in the context of doing more, as they do for sex.

happybunny3 · 05/02/2018 17:34

I didn't need to go as far to insult you. You chose that username and it simply matched the tone and content of your earlier post. I did go on to address the point you made and note you didn't respond to that.

And hey, not that you have any idea what I do for a living, but I will take airheaded and thick any day over how you describe yourself and how you come across!

OP posts:
DullAndOld · 06/02/2018 10:11

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Firefox1066 · 06/02/2018 12:04

happybunny don't feed the troll.... let's carry on with the adult discussion we were having...

happybunny3 · 06/02/2018 13:56

Thanks Firefox. I was indeed going to say she had trivialised the discussion.

I know of people who have held offers from A and they are genuinely concerned about the diversity issue - it is definitely influencing decisions as to whether to accept or not.

OP posts:
Ivebeenaroundtheblock · 06/02/2018 18:34

The fact that it is predominately a fee paying school automatically prevents financial diversity. Financial diversity seemed to be the OP’s initial concern.
Multicultural diversity, isn’t always obvious.
Hill House tends to boast about this aspect of their school, but not sure it it ends up being more culturally diverse than the other privates.

AnotherNewt · 07/02/2018 07:06

It's nit a predominantly fee-paying school, it's an entirely fee-paying school.

But as it has one of the larger bursary pots in London (they joys of 400 years of compound interest) it is one of the schools which really can offer a good number of bursaries, including extremely large ones (it's sister school for example can and has offered support over 100%)

Hill House is in a completely different part of London and covers a different age group, so I wouldn't automatically see it as a comparison for Alleyns. Probably instead the Charter if you want to see what a SE London secondary school in an affluent area is like (not Kingsdale, lottery admission would surely be too much of a confounder).

SouthLondonDaddy · 07/02/2018 09:27

I know 2 (very) wealthy, non-white families who thought about private schools in Dulwich, visited them, talked to other parents, and in the end decided to not even apply because they didn't want their children to be (almost) the only non-white kids.
Of course it's very subjective, and other non-white families make the opposite decision.

Have you tried the East Dulwich Forum or Nappy Valley Net? Dulwich is not in the nappy valley but there are nappy valley families that consider moving to Dulwich for the schools, or who send their kids there via private bus without relocating.

SouthLondonDaddy · 07/02/2018 09:29

PS The Charter school in North Dulwich is an outstanding state secondary. The same trust has now opened another Charter School on the site of the Dulwich Hospital, next to the East Dulwich station (which is really South Camberwell more than East Dulwich).

SouthLondonDaddy · 07/02/2018 09:36

@AnotherNewt : it's not only 400 years of compound interest, it's also the beauty of our legal system: the Dulwich Estate
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dulwich_Estate
manages loads and loads of land; there was some uproar around last year, when it tripled the rent of a toy store in Herne Hill, forcing it to close. Business is business, of course, but whether this kind of business should be registered as a non-tax-paying charity, which finances local expensive private schools, is another matter.

Oh, there is also a convoluted legal system, whereby if you live in the Dulwich Village, even if you own the freehold, you don't really own it, because you must still pay the Dulwich Estate for the maintenance of the trees, seek their permission for any alteration to your property (double glazing is a big no no, never ever allowed), etc. And I thought the Middle Ages were a thing of the past...

Back on topic, sending a non-rich kid to an expensive school with a bursary is not as straightforward as it might seem. I have a friend from a very modest family who did just this; on one hand it helped him land a place in a Russell Group university, on the other hand his teenage years were awful because he was too different from most other kids, couldn't afford to do all the activities they did, etc.

sothatdidntwork · 07/02/2018 09:59

"Oddly the growing concern of many schools seems to be that the middle classes are being squeezed out in favour of the super-rich."

Is that because fees are going up faster than earnings, or changes in the demography of the surrounding area? Or a bit of both?

dameofdilemma · 07/02/2018 13:00

Any super selective school (whether selective by entrance exams or fees or faith or all three) is unlikely to represent a diverse section of society (and possibly not even reflect the local community).

Even the intake of state secondary schools can be unbalanced by house prices in catchment areas and entrance criteria. As Mrs Gove said of Grey Coat school - it isn't exactly sink estate high (or something like that).

The only answer (if you still want to benefit from the other advantages selective schools can offer) is to ensure life outside school is diverse, informed and a broader experience.
A life revolving around school activities only might be limiting for any child but particularly in areas where there is a noticeable divide across both wealth and ethnicity (South London).

Just pick a school that meets other criteria and hope your parenting balances out any negative influences. That's all any parent can do.

bialystockandbloom · 07/02/2018 13:04

Southlondondaddy the new Charter is more north Dulwich/Dulwich village area rather than camberwell, and is virtually directly opposite Alleyns!

SouthLondonDaddy · 07/02/2018 13:27

@bialystockandbloom , I think you're making some confusion.

The 'old' Chater is on Red Post Hill, not far from the North Dulwich station: www.charter.southwark.sch.uk/

The 'new' Charter is right next to the East Dulwich station: www.chartereastdulwich.org.uk/

What I meant is that many people consider East Dulwich to start a few bus stops south of that, e.g. where the Lordship Lane high street starts.

Look on google maps:
goo.gl/maps/G8fpee81Vrn

Note that the new Charter is in a temporary site somewhere else at the moment, but distance (for admissions) is measured from Jarvis road (see map).

www.chartereastdulwich.org.uk/attachments/download.asp?file=42

"The finish point is the nodal
point at the Jarvis Road entrance to the site"

There was a big row years ago because the 'old' Charter calculated distance based on 'safe walking paths', which oh-what-a-coincidence-who-would-have-ever-guessed-it just so happened to exclude some council estates.

bialystockandbloom · 07/02/2018 13:50

Thanks for the mansplanation explanation Grin I do know where they all are, my dd is at Alleyns and my ds is possibly going to start at the (new) charter in Sep, I'm very local. Def wouldn't call it south Camberwell.

SouthLondonDaddy · 07/02/2018 14:03

I certainly wouldn't call Jarvis road Dulwich village area.

I say tomato... :)

Ladydepp · 07/02/2018 14:07

SouthLondonDaddy - I am genuinely curious about these two families that looked around the private schools in Dulwich and decided they were too white. What year was this?

I have just looked at my son's House photo, so it covers everyone in his house from year 9-13. I count approximately 90 kids, there are 10 visibly non-white children. There could obviously be some mixed race children I am not counting too. Saying the school is almost all white seems incorrect to me.

I don't know much about JAGs but DC has even more non-white children than Alleyn's.

Needmoresleep · 07/02/2018 14:16

sothatdidntwork The population of London has risen rapidly over the past decade or so, fuelled in part by inward migration, sending demand for schools including independent schools, rising. I once knew (from someone who handled independent school admission appeals) how many additional independent school places were needed each year as a result of this migration. It was surprisingly high, reflected by the willingness of financiers to fund new secondary schools, or the expansion of prep schools upwards.

It is a real mix. Senior bankers and lawyers whose employers have international HQ in the city; European trustaferians; Russians Arabs and others who have decided to raise their families in London, Asians and Africans wanting their DC to have an international education. British education is a real draw, as can be evidenced by the new chains of Harrow/Dulwich/Westminster schools being set up overseas. Why buy into the franchise when you could have the real thing.

At the same time, the ending of Direct Grant and the rise in fees, is squeezing the trad middle classes out of private education. As is the pressure on places, and the greater priority some will put on academic achievement. Take a peek at some of the 3+ threads.

Having gone through the process we realise that at times our DC were overshadowed academically by those who were getting a lot of support outside school. When DD was 7 she asked for a tutor because one of her (international trustafarian) classmates was boasting she had tutors on both Saturday and Sunday. Another girl who got into SPGS had no playdates for six months and tutoring morning and evening. Its meant that DC had headroom starting University and are used to independent learning, so it was not a problem. But perhaps a concern for schools who have a charitable ethos, so perhaps are less comfortable with some of the "my child first", and have the challenge at 11+ of unpicking the potential that may lie behind a thick veneer of preparation .

From observation schools with better international recognition (St Pauls, Westminster) and single sex schools (G&L which offers IB is an obvious example) are more popular. However, without looking, I would guess that the numbers from Alleyns applying for US Universities, like from other London private schools, has been rising over the years. A reasonable proxy for growing an increasingly international pupil body.

At what point does international become diverse?! Or at what point does being boring English middle class public sector become a contribution to a school's diversity.

SouthLondonDaddy · 07/02/2018 15:27

@Ladydepp, they're two Indian families. They told me this 2 or 3 years ago. One of the families used to live in zone 1, then moved to suburbia (still inside the M25, but only just), when they decided they wanted to reproduce, and that she would give up her job, be a stay-at-home-mum, and he'd endure the commute. Don't know much about the other family.
Both said that the Dulwich schools seemed less diverse and 'too white' compared to other private schools. I'm trying to remember where they sent their children in the end, but the name escapes me.

Note that I am not saying I agree with them, I am just reporting a conversation. I have never considered going private, so I did not probe further, nor have I ever done any 'research' of my own into the matter.

In retrospect, this is so vague I should have maybe not mentioned it - at the end of the day it's just hearsay.