State or selective private school for reception?

[Rumpleteezer]

Hi everybody. We have a bit of a dilemma; our DD has recently been offered a place at PHS for reception this year which we are delighted about. We liked the feel of it when we looked around and were impressed by the confidence and enthusiasm of the girls who showed us around, alongside the facilities. We were planning to have this as our back up in case our daughter didn't get into the primary school our house backs on to though that is not guaranteed as the intake is halving this year and last year a full form was taken up with siblings. However, there is a good chance she will get in and it is an excellent school (she currently attends nursery there) though there isn't much outdoor space and obviously class sizes will be larger.

We are now feeling like we ought to take the PHS place but the cost is a serious consideration. Will we regret not taking it or will we regret paying £100k in fees by the time she is 11? Hearing how competitive it is to get into the best schools at 11 (this would be our front runner if we stayed in the area) I feel that maybe we should pick the high school to avoid all of that stress later on.

Has anyone made a decision in a similar scenario? What were your motivations in doing so?

Thanks for reading!

No experience of PHS but my DD has been in a pre-prep since the term before reception after being in a similar position to you. I don’t regret it at all - she’s in a co-ed day school and has swum every week since last term of preschool, has music and art lessons and all children have weekly reading and spellings at their own level. The thing that makes a huge difference for me though is she is very happy (year group of approx. 50 split into 4 classes) and her confidence has increased as they are very hot on inclusion.

If it’s the right school for her then I don’t think you’ll regret it.

Dd is at Private Secondary but went to State Primary. Her School goes from 3-16 so we did consider it for Reception but she got a place at a good local State Primary so we went for that and saved up the fees for Secondary so if circumstances change we can still afford it. The Private Reception place was just a back up in case we didn’t get the Primary we wanted ( outside catchment) but as we aren’t in London the school system isn’t quite as brutal and we were able to see if we had the School, we wanted before paying deposits etc for the Private option.
Now she’s in Year 8 and I’m really glad she hasn’t been there since year R for the following reasons
She has friends outside school (some still from Primary)
She is much more streetwise and less insular than any of her peers
Her school friendships are good whereas some kids who have known each other since age 3 are quite frankly sick of each other.
Transition to college will be easier
We haven’t had to make financial sacrifices
I have met some great friends via DD’s Primary who are a real mixed bag
Dd has experience of different people/circumstances than many of her peers
This is based on my own observations, speaking to other parents and my voluntary involvement with her School.
If you stand a good chance of the local State Primary I would say go for that. Our situation was that we could have moved her to The Private School if State hadn’t worked but not the other way around. Luckily we also knew we had the State place before we had to make a decision about the Private School

My DH and I have also recently returned to HE and I would say that it is instantly apparent on my (mostly female) course which students attended state vs independent.
My (v privileged and generations of Oxbridge) DH thinks that there is something inherently wrong with purchasing this polish and advantage for our children.
In principle I agree but parenthood has certainly relaxed my morals on this a lot.
In the end I want happy confident kids who have lots of lovely memories of their childhood and who can make a life which makes them happy.
Also people talk about spending money on tutors and clubs out of school. But because my DD isn't getting enough exercise at school (we walk but live nearby) we spend a lot of the evening ferrying to various activities and I can't bear to make up for the more dilute educational time at school with extra sitting down with a tutor. Again my DH thinks no need for tutor anyway, tho' he does acknowledge lack of sports is a real issue.

Wow, anyone reading this thread could be forgiven for thinking that state schools offer nothing at all on top of the basic subject content. Not the case in a good state school at all!

My dd has had lots of inspiring individuals come into her state school assemblies from all different walks of life. There are plenty of extra-curricular opportunities too - as it happens, she is at school all day today rehearsing for a school production. There were specialist science and music teachers at her primary school, too. Class sizes weren't as small in the private sector, I grant you, but there was small group teaching when appropriate and actually, we valued the wider social circle that a larger class offered. And swimming/drama etc can be supported outside school easily for a lot less money than the private school fees.

Go private if you think it's worth it, by all means, but don't make the assumption that it must be better just because you pay for it. We looked at all of the local school options for dd, including the selective independents, and concluded that they really weren't the investment - flashier marketing and nicer buildings, no doubt, but I far preferred the ethos in the state school when it came down to it.

Agree broken biscuit! My dd’s state school offers music lessons from y1, every sports club you could imagine, regular swimming lessons. Amazing teaching and a very supportive atmosphere - I really don’t know what else we could pay for extra except the ‘pandering to the parents’ bit of glossy brochures etc. and I climbed a mountain at 16, through a trip organised by my state school and gave a talk in the asssembly - didn’t need someone to come in and do it! -

Thank you all for your replies, really appreciate approaching from different perspectives. I would say that what impressed us most looking around was not the flashy facilities but the general confidence and self-awareness of the girls and the fact that they were clearly engaged and loved learning. We looked at other private schools in the area and judged them too similar to the state school to make a clear distinction but PHS really stood out to us.

My main concerns with the state school lies in the fact that there is no scope to extend, currently over 300 children share a playground and they do not have opportunities to go swimming or do other sports and while there are a few clubs there doesn't seem to be a huge amount organised in this respect (or indeed school trips). It is a lovely school though and we have had a great experience with nursery, I just wonder if our shy but hard working DD would get the most out of it or would possibly get pushed aside somewhat by children that demanded more attention. This is the clincher I suppose.

Also I'm not sure how easy it would be to get her into PHS later on - does anyone have any experience of joining the school later at, say, 7+? Currently this year there were 250 girls applying for 44 places which I imagine is only going to get more competitive.

Op you sound like you love the school and want to send her so it doesn't really matter what anyone else thinks! Just send her if you like it and can afford it.

As you can tell I'm massively conflicted! I feel like we would regret not taking the PH place more than we would regret paying the fees from 4. Maybe that's my answer.

If you think you'd regret it at some stage then just do it. Sounds like a lovely school and it's great that you have the funds to be able to send your DD. Send her and be confident in your choice!

DD joined PHS at 11+ from one of the local state primaries. I think the junior school is good but I'm not sure you could justify the extra fees on what it delivers. The senior school is excellent - lovely ethos and atmosphere.

I also think that whilst there is a benefit in going to the junior school to avoid the 11+ it actually does some girls a disservice. For some it might have been better to be at a slightly less academic school - there is quite a wide range of ability across DD's year.

Self esteem is so important and it's not great for those girls who feel like they're always at the bottom of the class. Of course that applies to all of the academically selective schools in London.

We didn't bother looking at private schools for primary but chose one for seecondary. Our experience has been that the private school is better in almost every way than the state school. But I think we were lucky with our choice. Funnily enough, it's the state school that had all the shiny, brand new facilities. It was better equipped than any private shcool locally but the pastoral care sucked. Their private secondary is pretty ropey in terms of facilities but the school ethos is outstanding.

You should send her if that’s what your gut says.
250 applications for 44 places is the same sort of entry ratios as state school - each of those 250 will have usually applied for many other schools too and phs may not be their first choice once offers are made. It is competitive but maybe not as bad as you think.

Sandybayley do you mind me asking what age your daughter is now - I.e will we be forced to run the gamut of tutoring from age 8/9 to ensure a place at 11? I'm not sure I would want to put her through that.

How do the schools compare for Pastoral Care ?

Don't let fear be your decider. Fear that there won't be a place at 7+ or at 11+. There will be places at these points.
Be realistic about getting into the state primary. It sounds like you are pretty much certain. If it's a good school, then give it a try. If it were a crap option, then I can see PHS might be more appealing.

If you really want, you can accept PHS and wait to see what happens with state school offers. You may have to pay a term of fees, but that's small compared to the cost of private KS1 or KS1 and 2. The thing is, as soon as you accept, you will get more lovely stuff in the post and it will become harder and harder to turn it down.

Choosing the state school now doesn't mean your child doesn't have choices again at 7 and 11. Anyone who tells you it's now or never isn't telling the truth. It's hard not to feel flattered by the offer and of course it all looks great and is great.....but is it loads better and is it needed, compared to the free alternative?

And don't make the choice just to avoid 11+. That's 7 years of fees to avoid an exam.

Often, the kids who go straight through from the Prep feeder get in on a slightly lower standard. In some ways that's good and in other ways bad. Those lower ability ones often the S truffle and remain at the bottom. They haven't had the practice and preparation for 11+, which is a pain and stressful, but actually has advantages too - improving their maths and English and learning VR/NVR are not a waste of time, nor is learning exam skills.

Remember kids can get culled from Preps that feed straight through too and ability to pass a test at 4 doesn't signify they will definitely be suited for the senior. What if they would be better suited to a different independent?

Personally I'd prefer a separate Prep which feeds many seniors - it gives the choice of many secondaries and prepares for many, giving the chance to discover where is really the best as the kids grow. They will prepare for the exams too.

Don't choose just to avoid 11+.

Chocolate speaks sense.

DD is a couple of years in.

We tutored for an hour a week for just over a year. It wasn't stressful and DD enjoyed it. I think if you need to do more than that you risk over tutoring and your DD could end up in a school that's too much for her.

A good Merton or Wandsworth state primary is a great option. If you're really unhappy you can switch at 7+ or if all is OK hold on to 11+.

There are loads of very able girls in DDs year who sailed in at 11+ from local state primaries. Other friends also got into grammars and other indies.

OP, we had good reasons to send DC1 to a selective private school, and then it seemed wrong not to do the same with the others. I am at financial breaking point now. Would I do the same, if we could do it all again? Hard to say. But one thing is for certain, and that is that is once you have started with independent schools, you are pretty much stuck with it. It is a long-term commitment, and it will suck up every penny you possess. I still think it's worth it, despite living in the tiniest house known to mankind, with no kitchen beyond a sink and cooker (bought a renovation property and can't afford to renovate it due to ruinous school fees).

Actually, I think the big mistake is possibly to start with independent schools and then get divorced. Two financially ruinous enterprises.

All that said... I would probably prostitute myself, if I weren't middle-aged and un-prostitute-able, to get my DC through independent schools. I went to one for 13 years, and so did ExH. We know no better.

I absolutely believe that private primary school is great is you can afford it. I had to remove my children from our offsted rated ‘excellent’ local school because the class sizes were just ludicrous. Yes, we now will not be able to go on as many family holidays but we have seen an immense improvement in our children’s abilities, they seem more confident in themselves and there’s been an improvement in their behaviour. Their new school feels so much more like a family and the extra-curricular activities are far more impressive. I honestly believe that we are doing the right thing and have no regrets

I really don't get why it's so important to have a swimming pool (for example) on site. My state educated kids walk to the local 30m one - it's not a biggie. Their friends who are good swimmers are members of that pool's swimming team, which is filled with kids from state and private schools. Frankly if your child is going to get to a good level in any sport or musical instrument, then they need to do it outside school, whatever type of school they attend.

People I know who use private always say things like 'oh it's too difficult to go to a tutor for an hour a week' yet their child's commute is five hours a week with the parents spending double that getting them to and fro. And really how difficult is attending a football club/tutor/whatever outside school in comparison to earning the £40k (gross) necessary just for one set of fees?

I've also heard lots of criticisms of prep schools attached to secondary schools (Latymer, SHHS, UCS, Highgate, City) - that the teaching and management is pretty complacent as they know they've got parents desperate to get their children in so they can avoid the 11+.

Lastly my children don't seem to have any problems with 30 in a class from a whole range of backgrounds (and they go to a school that is 60% FSM). Eldest is at a v sought-after selective private secondary, seems to be doing OK, found the 11+ relatively straightforward. Second child going through 11+ now so we'll see how that goes. If your child is reasonably academic, there's a private secondary that will be happy to take your money. I'm not convinced that London secondaries are as hyperbolically competitive as the rumour mill would have it.

For me it's not all about facilities, though it's certainly nice to think that there would be more options on offer. It's about the confidence gained by having the smaller class size, the access to a wide range of activities that are nurtured in school time (we already do plenty after nursery such as swimming/ballet/art classes) so paying someone else to do it for me isn't my motivation. But she may have access to languages/sports and other opportunities that I couldn't conceivably give her through state school.

I think part of the dilemma for me is that I went to a state school, then selective senior school and I really noticed a huge jump from those like me to those who had been down the private/selective route already. It took me about two years to catch up! Thinking we've made our decision now and these replies have all been so useful, thank you all.