State or selective private school for reception?

[Rumpleteezer]

Hi everybody. We have a bit of a dilemma; our DD has recently been offered a place at PHS for reception this year which we are delighted about. We liked the feel of it when we looked around and were impressed by the confidence and enthusiasm of the girls who showed us around, alongside the facilities. We were planning to have this as our back up in case our daughter didn't get into the primary school our house backs on to though that is not guaranteed as the intake is halving this year and last year a full form was taken up with siblings. However, there is a good chance she will get in and it is an excellent school (she currently attends nursery there) though there isn't much outdoor space and obviously class sizes will be larger.

We are now feeling like we ought to take the PHS place but the cost is a serious consideration. Will we regret not taking it or will we regret paying £100k in fees by the time she is 11? Hearing how competitive it is to get into the best schools at 11 (this would be our front runner if we stayed in the area) I feel that maybe we should pick the high school to avoid all of that stress later on.

Has anyone made a decision in a similar scenario? What were your motivations in doing so?

Thanks for reading!

When do you need to accept and pay the deposit for PHS?
When will you get your state school offer?

Do you have other children or are you planning to have more?

If it's in any way tight financially then I would advise you to save your money for secondary

Personally I think private for primary is a waste of money. If you can spend the money and not notice it go for it- if it’s going to impact your life and make you cut back in any way then go state and pay for tutors for the 7+ or 11+ at a later date. You can also pay for all the extra circular etc

We have to pay the deposit in the next two weeks. We have another daughter and I'm pregnant but don't know the gender yet. So it would be tight but we would happily forgo holidays in favour of fees once we got to the third child in...

I honestly feel it would be a better fit for my DD at the moment but I wonder if she we be ok at the state school then could try again at 7. No guarantees in that situation of course.

State school offers are middle of April, I believe

But if child 3 is a boy where are you sending them?

If you are super close to your preferred primary then you could possibly get in from the waitlist before school starts if you don't get a place in the first offer round

There's a chance we may not still be in London, but if we are there are a number of private schools close by that could work. Of course there is no guarantee of a sibling getting in to PHS is there?

If we were offered the state school place I really just don't know if we could take it, knowing the alternative is just better. I have no idea how we will make this decision!

It isn’t better though - you’ve just been fed that on the marketing - they spend the money on marketing and nice coffee and wine for the parents evenings and encourage smart uniforms. You are essentially being sucked by a marketing con.

Honestly it’s much better for a child to have lovely family holidays then it is to attend private school when you have a very good state option close by.

We started in private and don’t 100% regret it but do wonder about the value.

DD is now in grammar and loving it more than independent but we will never know what proportion was our or the school input. The small classes helped for pre-reception (DD was so ready to start at 3.5) to Y2 but after that I think in hindsight we should have tried to get back into state but ended up moving her at Y3 to another (this time a selective) Indie when there was a brain drain that meant the school couldn’t cope with her in the year she was in as recommend adjusting her year group which we weren’t happy with.

We started with a school that we imagined DD might be at from 3 to 18, moved her to a selective school for Y3 thinking we might avoid the eleven plus, but in reality children change and grow and what might seem the right school at a certain point may not be the same scenario a few years later.

In the end DD is happy in her state school and happily (seriously we are blessed in that use likes tests!) went through the ‘angst’ of the eleven plus for indies and state schools (even though she had a ‘guaranteed pass through’ from her lower school) as we realised by then we needed to keep options open and children even in a short space of time - change.

I don’t know what PHS is. Is it a London school? Is it a girls through school that your daughter would stay in?
I think the money could be better doesn’t on amazing holidays and experiences and if you have 3 then knowing you’re only paying for 7yrs rather than 14 for each of them is a massive weight off your shoulders.

We had a similar choice with our DD and chose the independent school. We only have one kid but have made some big lifestyle choices to make it affordable. However I am very happy with the decision we made - she has settled so well and is devouring all the opportunities it offers.

There is so much extra-curricular stuff that is completely inspiring her that we as full time working parents would never be able to offer her.

It’s a decision only you can make but I’d say I’m glad we went with our instincts on this one. It sounds to me like you know which way feels right.

Rainbows and flowers I don't think we are being sucked in by the marketing - what we liked was the outside space and extra clubs - three playgrounds, tennis courts, bused over to a school field, swimming lessons from year two, none of which the state school can offer of course as space is a major issue here.

I think we would be fine with one, maybe two children there before we had to make any major sacrifices but it's just whether it's worth it at 4. For her I think probably as she's very bright and is reading/writing already at nursery but we don't know how our other children will be inclined of course.

Yes, PHS is Putney High School - GDST (girls day school trust) school which goes through to 18.

GDST schools are amongst the cheapest of London private schools, but it's still a considerable amount.

The sorts of things that they offer, that it is rare for a state school to offer, include specialist teachers for art, music, MFL, sport and drama; unlimited classroom supplies (plenty of books, stationery, craft materials, musical instruments,) plus laboratories; no SATs, smaller classes, daily one-to-one reading, frequent PE, lots of productions, lots of trips out (though you'll be billed for some/all trips).

For that kind of money I want to be 100% sure that I am paying for better teaching. Bells and whistle like swimming pools and minibuses (both of which, incidentally, my DD’s bog standard state primary has) are all very nice but they don’t necessarily reassure me that teaching is superb, and that results are not just due to highly motivated parents and any challenging children just not admitted in the first place.

At primary school age, I would rather have early years specialists teaching rather than an art specialist who is not so hot on how to engage and teach younger children. Your private school of choice may offer early years arts specialist but remember they are first and foremost a business these days.

What's the difference in class size?

Well, if you think the school is employing a lower school art teacher (or any other teacher) who cannot engage the age group she was specifically hired to teach, then yes that would be a school to swerve.

(For yes, they'll have specialists working in each key stage equivalent, not just sticking a secondary school teacher in with the lower age group)

But remember, OP is asking about a London prep school. I think it is exceptionally unlikely that any of the staff will be incompetent for the age group, whether specialist or form teacher. Any that did not engage and teach their classes would be leaving pronto.

GDST is on a charity footing (any profits back into the school including the group policy to hold fees down) and part of a group with schools across the country. Any/all of that group are a sound choice.

But if course, nit everyone's choice.

They key question for you OP, is whether you see school as a journey which should be interesting as a journey, or just a means to the destination of secondary school transfer. If the former, then PHS may well be the right choice. If the latter, then going state+tutor could make more sense.

"What's the difference in class size?"

London preps in SW London usually have 18-20 per class (one teacher, one TA for reception, maybe all through lower school), though there are some - the ones I'm thinking of are more central - where it can be as small as 12, but I don't know what they do for TAs.

State schools in SW London are basically full, so at least 30 per class (maybe a couple more if extras admitted on appeal).

No i wouldn’t.

I have taught in both state and private although secondary. All schools are selective. If I have enough money, my kids would go to a selective private every time.
As a Head of Maths, I observed enough lessons from Maths and also from other subjects to know that my current school's teaching is overall better. Surely there will be some individual teachers that are better but on the whole, it is better here. I can't comment on normal comprehensive schools because I never taught in one except during my teaching practice so I can't comment on things I don't know. I was seriously considering applying for a post at PHS three years ago so it as a very good school. Only some changes in family circumstance made me withdraw my application.

DD was at GDST school yes the specialist science and language teaching in the lower school was fab, but it wasn’t a silver bullet. They didn’t cope very well with differentiation so every child had to read at the same level as everyone else which was frustrating. Fortunately DD entered the school at Y3 so was way above as all the others had been held back. Some of the teaching was mediocre at best, the maths teaching was setted from Y5 but it was more lip service and we found out that really the top set weren’t doing anything different. The teaching was quite poor in maths and in the end the maths teacher was suspended. It was so bad for us we bailed out part way through Y6 and home educated until DD started at a state school in Y7.

Anothernewt - you are so right about the ‘journey’, that’s a really good insight.

I was less bothered about educational aspects or even the facilities - more the inspiring, confidence building stuff. They have talks at assemblies from women who have done amazing things - climbed Everest, helped refugees, scientists, etc. The library has authors in regularly. There’s a very friendly sense of community as it is a small school. It feels like a ‘system’ for raising strong confident and smart girls rather than just about the best grades or sport iyswim.

We have been having a similar dilemma for the last year. DD was in private Montessori, then English international private abroad for two years. We thought maybe we should try state when we returned back to the U.K.
Did so "blind" as only our parents could view.
She misses sport and specialist art teachers and smaller more caring class. A lot of the time is crowd control and sitting still and memorising. She has had insomnia from lack of exercise. She has definitely toughened up a bit tho' and I think grown in resilience but doesn't enjoy school anymore. Parents also notably less engaged (tho' other two schools were atypical as most children had a parent at home).
We'll move her at the end of the year to an all the way through quite gentle girls school (with tiny classes, about which I am quite worried). Academic wise it isn't a smart move but I think she will enjoy the "journey" so much more.
Will send DS (who will by then be in Y1) to a state school with forest school head and much more focus on fun. He has really enjoyed reception but fun stops in Y1 when the drilling (and v little PE/outdoor time) starts.
And then I hope to never have to move them again. Apart from DS who will need one more move but unsure where atm as nearby privates are boys only and quite rugger bugger.

OP- I totally get what you are saying about creating an environment to raise and inspire strong, confident girls, but a quick read of Mumsnet will show you that there are plenty of those who went to a state school and whose assemblies were little more than "All Things Bright and Beautiful" and recorder recitals.

If the state primary near you is a good school, then what the private school is offering over and above that is, to a large degree, window dressing which you can replicate at home. Subscribe to First News/The Week Junior and encourage children to read it and express their views. Buy a copy of the brilliant book currently out about women who changed the world. Spend the money you would have spent on fees on incredible trips and adventures as a family, and extra curricular activities. Your children will get just as much out of it i amsure.

Also consider that at 11+ you may decide your child would suit another secondary school

With a class size of only 20 I would go independent.

The independent school round the corner to me has class sizes of 25....my DS was in a class of 24 in a good state school with a huge field and lots of arts opportunities...no way would I have paid for the independent school.
In your case OP, I would send my child to the independent school except I'm not keen on single sex schools, but that's not what you asked

My guess is you will move your DD at some point anyway, so won't save that much money and it will be slightly disruptive for your DD.

If your dc has no sn that you are away of then I wouldn't pay for reception. Seriously, they play a lot and learn phonics and learning to make friends amongst a crowd is a skill.
i work at an all through private and whilst reception is lovely, I can't see that they're getting 3k a terms more value than my own DD in a good state reception.