Are we wasting our money?

[angelnumber9]

It appears that every year the results gap between state and independent schools narrows and this seems even more defined with 2017 figures. Combined with the incentives that top universities give to state school students I am struggling to find good reasons to carry on paying our hard earned dosh for DC's education.
To give this some perspective I have checked out local independent school results and compared them with some of the state school alternatives and it makes interesting reading. I have said before that we are very lucky to have such a good collection of schools in Shropshire. It has to be said that we can only just afford the less expensive ones such as Wrekin or Shrewsbury High School and I appreciate that like all things you get what you pay for but if you care to cost it out purely on a results v price basis there seems very little point in spending your money.....or am I missing something really important?
Having watched selective schools like the gdst's Shrewsbury High school continue to plummet down the A level league tables for the last 5 years (from 63rd with 61% A/A in 2014 to 255th and 26% this year) I know that many parents are again asking what their money is being spent on. Especially when non selective schools such as Moreton Hall and Adcote are roaring ahead (Moreton is an all round school monumentally up 118 places to 91st place with 53%, more that twice that of its High School rival. State grammar schools like Newport Girls High, Adams and Thomas Telford score consistently above 50% A/A and at least four Shrewsbury Sixth form students have achieved Oxbridge places. The Marches sixth form has 22% and William Brooke's 24%. Shrewsbury School and Concord (like the High School selective but far more expensive) have broken their own records. Concord unbelievably managing 84% A/A with 45% at A. Shrewsbury School continue to publish detailed exam results and leavers destinations on their very informative website.
Perhaps I'm too caught up in figures but when Shrewsbury High School recently held an Oxbridge conference in an attempt to win an award (sadly I'm told none of their girls have secured offers there since 2015) I can understand why parents are livid. But they now have a new dance school so perhaps girls will be able to waltz their way into Oxbridge??? (sorry, couldn't resist!).
So I am very frustrated about it all and seriously considering cutting my losses. I hate to see our school fees being spent on ridiculous projects when the focus should be on raising standards. With what I would save in fees I could probably buy a small house which may be a far better investment for my children in the long term.........anyone?

'Extras are lovely until yr 9 or 10'
This comment reflects how we all have different views as to what the purpose of education is. I think that extras are absolutely essential for all age groups, I don't believe they are 'bit superfluous' for 6 th formers, in fact the complete opposite. Therefore I'm was happy to pay.
Others of course have different views.

Ah, mine do lots of pretty high level sport, music and drama. Not in school though, school is for friends and academics. In fact you'd struggle to get sport at such a good level at any private school anyway.

My DS counldnt do his sport outside of school as the nearest decent club was a 60+ mile round trip, I didn't have the time or energy to do that thatbof drive three times a week. Some schools provide a huge variety of extra curricular activities; regular concerts plays lectures etc, that are simply not easily available to your average family especially those in rural areas.

For us it was totally not necessary.

And we are very rural. We go to concerts and plays. Honestly, there's nothing our local excellent private school offers that we can't do anyway except lacrosse which we can live without

This is what I'm saying it's all about what you need, what you want your DC to experi come and what you believe the purpose of education is. There is no right answer.

But it is a lot of work. Not sure it's worth 50k not to have to do the driving though!

Gini99, I wasn't referring to a specific article but I was referring to that specific information. So thanks for linking.

But do the 93% of state educated children take 93% of the Oxbridge or RG uni places? No they don't. So I don't understand your argument

If you take mostly the brightest, most tutored, wealthiest children in the country, put them in a separate school, provide them with every privilege and exclude any child who will perform badly then if it was working you would expect them to be able to take up all the places at the best universities in the world.

But they dont, state schools, with all their handicaps, produce more of the best educated children at universities like Oxford and Cambridge. You dont compare privately educated children with children on FSM. You compare like with like, and when you do, state education wins every time. Just look at the officially published tables, with the top 50, 100, 200, 300, or whatever number of schools, list more state schools than private because obviously they provide a better education. Its not because they have better football teams....

OP - forget Oxbridge for a moment... you're putting the cart before the horse, if you don't mind me saying so.

Your dd is in Y8 and is unhappy at her current school. That is what you need to focus on. Have you actually asked her whether she wants to stay there, or whether she'd like to consider a move to another school?

Going to concerts and plays is not the same as rehearsing for them, joining in with others to produce something to a deadline, playing an instrument to a high level, taking responsibility for playing in an orchestra and gaining pleasure from taking part. Not the same at all. If a private school really offers nothing more, then don't pay but a good private school offers a great deal more. That's why it is always best to aim for a very good pivate school. Some local ones are rather basic.

To correct an earlier assumption, there are many girls' independent schools that are not awash with money. They don't have centuries of legacies and millions from alumni because women just didn't leave money to girls' schools. They often have to work hard to make ends meet or borrow!

DS2's school offered 30+ concerts a term, 5-6 plays a term, a weekly sometimes twice weekly lecture from someone eminent in their field plus 60+ sports extra curricular activities. Where we live it would not be possible for my DS to access anything like this way, even if I had been willing and able to drive him around every night of the week.
We live in a small village, we have a higher than average elderly population, our "annual concert" is held on a weekday lunch time, the highlight of the year here is the Gardening Clubs annual flower and produce show which has little appeal to a teenager, we have no public transport, no sports or clubs aimed at his age groups except cricket, a sport he loathes, so any activities/interests he had required a driver and car, our nearest city offered good anything even remotely comparable is 30 miles away.

Extras are lovely until yr 9 or 10

Wow. That really is utter bollocks.

There isn't all that much point in paying for a private education if your dd is not thriving in that atmosphere and you believe she is being made to feel inadequate. Perhaps she feels that she doesn't fit in there. Maybe her ambitions don't lie in the direction of Oxbridge. Maybe she thinks she's failing you and she'll never be good enough to live up to your expectations.

Bubbles buddy, with the greatest of respect I find your comments rather patronising. You chose boarding schools for your DC and that is your prerogative however they are way beyond our very limited budget so we chose what we thought was a good day school. As my DD comes home every afternoon I can, and do make use of any number of local dance schools for what you refer to as value added. What I do expect from a school, especially one that I am paying for is a very good standard of academic education in a happy atmosphere that produces very good exam results. I don't expect the school budget for good teachers to be squandered on various projects that aim to showcase the school rather than the students. DD like many of her friends enjoys a healthy social life with lots of clubs outside of school so I don't appreciate a rigorous academic education being sidelined when the school is so obviously failing in its most basic task. What you have said has reinforced my belief that I should move DD as soon as possible. I can spend lots of time helping her with 'the value added' stuff but I do not have the skills or the knowledge to get her good A level results, that should be down to the school with the support of parents.

Extras are lovely until yr 9 or 10. Wow. That really is utter bollocks.

It wasn't bollocks as far as we were concerned. Obviously if you can afford to pay to have it all in one place and that's important to you then knock yourself out. As I explained we did all extras out of school anyway so they were definitely not worth paying for. A good swimming club will always be better than 95% of private schools for example

Going to concerts and plays is not the same as rehearsing for them, joining in with others to produce something to a deadline, playing an instrument to a high level, taking responsibility for playing in an orchestra and gaining pleasure from taking part. thanks for explaining that bubbles

Obviously being a state school parent I wouldn't have any experience of that

I personally feel that independent schools are better for sport and stuff like getting into ppe.
For stem and vocational then state probably has an edge.

There was a large scale Cambridge study a couple of years' ago that found students from state schools were more likely to get a 2:1 or a 1st at university. I guess state school students show resilience earlier on in order to get their university places in the first place, which might then help them in their degree (when you don't have a big support system to lean back on).

I agree with the OP that it is definitely a less clear cut comparison between state and private than it sometimes seems. While I agree that state school kids are at a disadvantage in many ways, I'm inclined to think that parental guidance is ultimately a more important factor than school, and the kids most likely to succeed academically are the ones with parents who encourage curiosity and a love of knowledge early on.

However, the most exclusive private schools still have a cultural stronghold due to the backgrounds of the people that go to these schools and the fact they are raised expecting to achieve great things.

For girls and STEM careers single sex schools are best imo. (State or Independent)
I’ve heard lots of people with a coed education say that boys dominate STEM classes from a teacher’s attention point of view and this makes girls feel that STEM is for boys.

I would expect an average intelligence child to do better at private school but a motivated bright child may do equally well in both academically.

For me private school children get a better start in life as they tend to be more confident and 'polished' which makes them more employable. I think smaller class sizes, better or at least less stressed (on the whole) teachers and extra curricular activities (so a child can find confidence in skills outside academic) all contribute to having more confidence.

I would also expect private education to get you better IT, language and public speaking skills than a state school but this is not a given.

You are also part of an old boys club which can open up opportunities.

OP it depends how much value you put on the above versus purely academics and whether you feel your dc is getting that confidence / polish (for want of a better word) from the school.

There was a large scale Cambridge study a couple of years' ago that found students from state schools were more likely to get a 2:1 or a 1st at university. No there wasn't, actually - there was one that was catastrophically misreported, when it actually found the opposite!

@relax could you elaborate? I'm not being snarky or doubting you, I'm genuinely curious as this was something that was widely reported at the time.

Extras are lovely until yr 9 or 10. Wow. That really is utter bollocks

Why is that? Its great to flaunt your wealth, pay for expensive trips and clubs until Y10 when they start actual exams that matter, where state schools do better than private.

If you want excellence, then look to people who work for it, rather than looking to people who try to buy it.

"You are also part of the old boys club which can open up opportunities".
Not this old chestnut again. DH went to one of those school many would associate with "old boys clubs" he's never had any opportunities opened up by it, neither have any of his school friends.
The "old boys club" primarily exists in the minds of those who couldn't join one if it did exist.
"For STEM ...... probably has the edge.
Lots of DS2's friend are doing STEM subjects at top universities.In fact I would say more STEM subjects than anything thing else I don't think you can generalise.

I've always thought private schools are a waste of money.
Isn't the best indicator of academic achievement having parents who are warm and caring, read and talk to their children and later support then in their studies?