please help me with my school dilemma

[shergar]

DH and I can't decide between two schools for our DD, who starts Reception in September. We currently have places reserved at both, and in the next two weeks will need to cancel one.

School #1 is the local state primary, which is 5 minutes walk away. It is lovely, and has its own swimming pool and little wood, and is Outstanding in all Ofsted categories with a great headmaster (however, pretty sure he'll retire soon). Our neighbour's DD, who our DD loves, is also starting there at the same time, and another neighbour's DD will go the year after too. After school care there (DH and I work full time) is a bit of an issue though - children are taken by bus to a childcare centre a mile away, and I feel quite worried about the logistics of it all. (Neighbour also works, and would use same childcare for after school).

School #2 is the local prep school, which is also lovely and set in a huge area of parkland, with brilliant facilities. DD has been at the nursery there and so knows it well, and we originally just intended to send her there as we didn't think we'd get a place at School #1. It's a 10 minute drive away (too far to walk, and across a dual carriageway). There are classes of ten though, and children can stay there doing various activities until 5.30pm, which I am more comfortable with as an after school care plan.

We can afford #2, though it won't be easy as there is a DS to follow in 2 years (Option #1 would definitely allow for more other things like exciting holidays, music lessons and home improvements!) and we just can't work out what to do for the best. Any advice or perspectives gratefully received, and I know that these are both good choices and we're lucky to have them.

I think you might be right about the not managing/needing school play dates with 5 children Xenia. DD is an only child however, so play dates are important for her, and us. Our weekends are alread busy with other stuff, so after school is a key time for her socialising with friends TBH.

Thanks for all your opinions. I am now researching local childminders, and if that is possible here then I would lean towards the state school (I have just spoken to another neighbour who has taught around here, and she tells me that School #1 sends a lot of children to private secondary schools, and is widely regarded to be the equal of any prep school, which is high praise!). However, if we can't get a childminder then I think we will go for School #2. School 2 is undersubscribed and would have places later on if we weren't happy with School #1 for any reason, so we can always change her that way - but if we don't take a place at School #1 there is no way we can later move her there from the prep school as it has >250 applicants for 30 places.

I don't, at this moment, have any way of cutting back further on working hours. Actually I probably can make it to school pick up a couple of days a week (I work in academia at a university and my hours are flexible when I'm not actually teaching) but can't be certain until about August.

What a huge decision though! Thanks so much for lending your ears.

Xenia says that privately educated children are over-represented at university, esp Oxbridge. Maybe so, but privately educated children are, almost by definition, from affluent families. They're certainly not from very poor families. These affluent children would be over-represented at university anyway - not only because they pass the exams, but because of family expectation.

One of the worst behaved children I came across in a state school was one who had been kicked out of private school.

And another child I knew at a private school spent all afternoon at A & E once because a fellow pupil had jabbed him in the eye with something sharp. That child was not even suspended, let alone excluded from the school and if it were me, I would have removed my children from that school.

The most high achieving child I ever came across, who eventually left Cambridge with a First at age 20, was educated completely by the state. But the difference was, she had highly supportive, high achieving parents(including SAHM) and no tv at home.

What is the problem with kids being driven to after-school club?

pointydog - nothing if that is the only alternative I guess. But for me, I would prefer the after school care to be onsite without the extra hassle of moving them about. Just personal preference I think. Also, how are they transported? Minibus? Car? Bus? Are there any child car seats available? This isn't just a one off trip, but every day after all.

This is how it's done for a few schools around here. Minibus - organised by after-school club - and it all has to comply with the usual array of health and safety rules. Minibus just takes them to the after-school club in teh centre of town.

Just seems like needless worry, that's all.

Tough one, I'd probably ploump for number 1 because:
it sounds like the school is lovely
the 5 minutes walk is a REAL bonus for me
friends/neighbours are there too

I aagree that the afterschool care isn't brilliant - I'd nto be happy with site transfer either.

So I'd look into - can the school set up a kids club if parents push for/pay for/support it?

Could you and neighbours share an afterschool childminder/nanny?

Could you look into an au pair to do school pick up for DD? (where is DS btw?) so she can come straight home after school.

talk to other parents and check out what the reality of the bustrip is for kids at the end of a school day.

also check out if its likely that deputy head will get headship/stay on in the school. Ask to speak to parent governers to express your concerns about head retiring and kids club.

If you arent' paying school fees you may find its easy to fund additional costs of homebased after school care.

I have to say that I would have major problems with off-site after school care and that it played its part in us opting for private school. Here the after school care is a couple of miles from the local school and you cannot visit it before your child starts. Also, the club picks up from other schools en route which would have meant DD being stuck in a minibus for 45 minutes and the possibilty of us hanging around waiting for her to arrive at the club if we finished work early. Just not a good system for us I'm afraid.

hi shergar

poor you - your thread has gone off on a private/public tangent - hope there is enough here to give you something to think about!

hula I think your advice very much reflects your own experience and may not be the case in the OP's area. I had no problem at all in finding a childminder for DS 3 days a week with a boy already on her books that DS has known since he was a baby and was in his class going into reception. She now also has two other boys that are in DS's class, amongst others, not all every night. It has worked well for me and DS.

A friend of mine picks up my dd at 2pm & drives her to after schools club 3 days a week when I am at uni as childminders were very hard to get. Even the lady who minds ds for me had no room for dd, so after school club suited us all best.

dd loves it!! She mixes with people who go to all the local schools, she learns Irish language & is currently learning to play tin whistle.

It is 2.5hrs max she is there.

I would opt for school #1.

bozza - you are right; it is just my local experience in the city I live in. Just wanted to point out that people shouldn't just assume childminders will be available, because that might not be the case. If you are going to rely on childminders then I think you need to start looking as soon as possible, esp if child is not already with a childminder prior to starting school.

It costs me £9/day for before/after school care in term time. And £28/day in the hols but that includes his lunch and trips out.

Agree hula, she needs to find out what the situation is in her area. DS went to nursery until he was reception age, so I was in that position of looking for a childminder to start with a reception age child. And it did work out for me.

Must admit - there are a fair few childminders doing drop offs and pick ups at ds's school. My friend is childminder actually and that's pretty much all she does.

My CM used to have younger ones but has stopped that now. It means she can have more of the 5-8s.

If you're thinking of private secondary then I would talk to some of the parents who have gone down that route from the state school. A surprising number from our local excellent state schools are tutored (from Year 3), and you need to consider whether that would be appropriate for your family. It is early days for us, but can't imagine our ds1 ever being particularly thrilled at out of school "lessons", which influenced our decision to go for a prep. Even there some boys are tutored, but most aren't.

In terms of local friends I find that this crops up a lot on MN, but haven't really seen it as an issue for us. There are 7 families on my road with primary age children - only one goes to the local state school. One is shipped 4 miles to their old state, and the rest are at private (3 families at our school which helps re school run). As Gobbledigook says there are definitely benefits in not having all friendships based round school - if you're with one set of friends all day then having different playmates afterwards can be a plus.

Re afterschool club - I think that you need to keep an open mind here. Some children thrive in these, others hate them. At our school we are not allowed to put reception children into the club until after they have been at school for half a term, and they really recommend that it isn't used regularly until Year 1. Despite having the club they recommend using a childminder is possible - the first term or two can be very tiring, and then being in the company of older children after school can hype up the younger ones. But ours is a boys school - girls may be different (and obviously each child is unique!).

Personally I don't think that the status of the school as either state or private makes a difference - you need to consider which your child will flourish at, and whether you can overcome the issues involved in sending them (whether they be financial or logistical). A school may have an excellent reputation but not be the right ethos/environment for your family.

Agree you need to look at your own situation. For us the problem wasn't work- I have to be in from 3.20 onwards to meet ds1 off his school bus (so I obviously wouldn't have a problem with an after-school club just because it was a bus ride away). Sometimes ds1 arrives just before 3.30, sometimes not until 4pm. It is very very difficult to pick up ds2 with ds1 in tow (even thought ds2's school have been very helpful in aiding us with that) so usually my Mum and Dad pick him up after they've finished work. I did think about state school plus childminder, but thought that would actuallly be messing ds2 around even more (especially as it would be the morning as well- same problem in the morning). I've also found that childminders have other commitments, and sometimes unavoidable things come up that mean that at short notice they can't have your child. This is not a slur on childminders,- I have had very happy experiences with the childminders I've placed children with. I just felt that with a shcool club there would never be that problem (which for us would be a very awkward problem).

Anyway it's all worked very well. I admit ds2 is the type of child to love school (luckily) but he moans when he doesn't get to go to after-school club- the school have said they've never had a reception child so keen to stay to tea For us the all under one roof thing has worked really well- it's very easy to organise, can all be decided last minute, I only pay for the time he's there and don't need to book in advance- it's very flexible. Also school for him is a secure place. And I like the fact that he's picked up from school and dropped off by a family member each day- it means we have daily contact with the school.

..not a single child on our road goes to a state school actually but that's just because of where we live.

EW - just because you found some random examples of badly behaved private school pupils hardly means they're all like that but I accept they come from better off homes so that alone in part could account for them getting to the better universities and getting better A levels. Anyway who wouldn't want their children educated with other children whose parents value education and are prepared and able to pay? It makes a much nicer environment for the children.

Shergar we are in a similar position. As many people have posted it really is about your family life, financial situation and most importantly your children (both of them).

My attitude towards walking to local school 5 minutes away is - if you want to send them to School 2 really just park up 5 minutes away and walk in!

For us the issues are about the freedom that private schools have in what they teach and how they teach it, the smaller classes, the amount of sport and music and drama etc they do/have access to. As regards sending state to primary and then private secondary - my concern here, as others have highlighted, is that it may be difficult to get into a good private secondary without extra tutoring.

Have you looked at both schools yet? One of the most important things is how they teach, as I have learnt to my cost!

My dd went to an excellent nursery and learnt all her sounds / phonics before starting Reception with the result that she flew when starting reading. Ds, now at the same school but having been at their preschool, is struggling because, contrary to current advice, they do not teach phonics quickly but spread it over 3 years and mix in a lot of sight words at the beginning.

I would suggest you speak to the actual teachers, look around the school and look at the work / reading books they have before making any decision.
Reading is the most important thing a child will learn and 'learning to read' by the end of Reception will mean they are then 'reading to learn'.

Also talk to the parents of older children at the schools to get a really good feel for what is / has been happening. I learnt that before the dc's started there had been a number of staff changes, some significant, which are likely to have an effect so the current good reputation may not continue.

Having said that, if it all checks out, I would go with No 2, mainly as the after school care is seamless and there is no chance of a glitch. As a working parent, that flexibiltiy is very important.

You can continue to have home friends and I agree with others that it works well - our neighbours' children go to an independent school some miles away but the children are all still friendly.

Hi,

It is a very difficult question to answer for someone else really. You need to weigh up firstly whether you can afford to send both of your children to the private school, I believe that you cannot do for one and not the other.
Then compare the cost of these fees with what the state school will cost with after school care (cm or after school club).

I do believe in both state and private education as I was lucky enough to go to an excellent state school (also with a swimming pool!) and then I moved onto a selective all girls school in the South East and also thrived there too.

My son is at present attending another excellent state primary school. We live very close to a teaching hospital and a lot of the children at my sons school are doctors /nurses children. Parents who really demand a lot from the school and most parents are like minded in wanting the best for their children. At senior level though a lot of these children move into the private sector which is what we will be doing with our son.

Although some of my friends have their children in prep schools, my son is not behind them in work at all. We give him lots of extra curricular activities which boosts what he is learning in school. visiting castles, doing sports, learning to play guitar etc. He is bi-lingual (my husband is French) and loves visiting museums (our last was the science museum in London)and certainly my level of education allows me to help him with spellings, fractions, times tables etc. Im not sure I would be such help though when he starts studying pythagoras, lymphatic system etc in secondary school which is why we will go for the private school to give him the extra help there.

He already has his name down for a selective school and although he is only in year 3 we have started on the Bond No nonsense English and Maths papers to help him, which he strangely enjoys doing! and in Year 5 and 6 will do the VR and NVR papers as well as the 11+ ones. No pressure is put on him, but I do want the best for him!

BTW I managed to get into my selective senior school without doing any tutoring/past papers etc at all.

Im all for the state system at primary level, most parents can help their os at that level if extra help is needed.

You will also be able to start saving for the senior fees!

good luck with whatever you choose

In your position I would go for school one and start lobbying for after-school provision on site It sounds as though it is not a cramped site and as others have said, being able to walk to school is wonderful.
If you have neighbours with children the same ages whom yours also get on with, that's a boon too.
It does sound as though you have two excellent alternatives though! Good luck with whichever you choose in the end.
We went independent, as it happens - partly because of on-site after-school care, but more critically, a local problem with the LEA and SATs and league table stuff (very bad rankings overall, despite some good local primaries). We just wanted out of the National Literacy and Numeracy strategies tbh.

All I'm saying with my random examples, is that going private is not a guarantee in itself of buying something better than you can get through the state. Some private schools are dreadful.

Xenia says "who wouldn't want their children educated with others whose parents value education and are prepared and able to pay?"

Actually, lots of people, Xenia. And if it were such a foregone conclusion, Shergar would not be raising the issue.

"Anyway who wouldn't want their children educated with other children whose parents value education and are prepared and able to pay?"

Parents who value education do not always have the ability (and/or wish) to pay, Ms X. That is a logical fallacy par excellence, imo.