How do i stop my little man form doing things backwards?

[Athena404]

Recently I noticed my son has been doing alot of things the wrong way round. For example he reads was as saw, draws 5s as 2s, his rs are backwards, and will occasionally write a word like drow. He didn't used to do this and now he's doing it increasingly. Is there something I should be doing to help him stop? I don't even think he realises he does it

Mrz as a teacher of over 30 years could l just say one thing. There is no need to be so rude to people who dont always do things your way. I admire a lot you post on teaching but your habit of scoffing at people who disagree with you iand writing them off s annoying. You are not a complete expert on everything to do with teaching so have some respect for your colleagues who have gained knowledge in their career too.
Sorry op.

DD does exactly this, OP. She mixes up b and d, p and q, 5 and 2, was and saw. Sometimes she writes whole sentences in mirror writing and doesn't realise, then argues with me when I point out it's lovely writing but going the wrong way

She is 5 and her teachers said it is completely normal at this age and nothing to worry about. She writes right handed.

I can also mirror write. I am ambidextrous and always assumed it is to do with that.

June I think if you read the thread you will find it was Twist who was rude

Agree june

I don't dare ask any questions about phonics on here.

He's 4?
He doesn't need to be reading and writing yet

I know Twist was talking about reversing words not just letters but the most up to date research evidence shows this isn't an indication of "Dyslexia" although around 10% of dyslexic individuals report they have this difficulty (less than found among the general population).
The idea that it's a symptom can be traced back to the1920s (Orton) and despite it being widely discredited the myth persists (mostly with teachers).

The left handed bit is to do with brain lateralisation. When they are just learning, a left handed person more naturally wants to start from a point and work right to left, whereas our writing system works left to right. Sometimes their right brain dominance flips everything. It often takes lefties a bit longer because they have to overcome their natural inclination. My left hander got it all sorted by the end of reception but we got lots of mirror writing before then. Leonardo da Vinci used mirror writing frequently as a left hander, even as an adult.

Agree with June.

I enjoy reading a lot of what you have to say mrz but if someone says something you don't agree with you shut them down and really are quite rude. It's not necessary. You have a lot of useful information to pass on.

Anyway, my 11 year old is dyslexic, he presents in his own unique way as we all know dyslexia is such a wide spectrum. He does still reverse letters numbers and words though his reading age is above his chronological age. He started doing it in reception and by year 2 I was asking for an assessment. Of course there were other signs too. They didn't listen and eventually agreed at year 4. I'm cross at all those wasted years.

If anyone thinks their child might be dyslexic, please continue to push for help even if online posters ridicule the suggestion.

I'm sorry you feel that way and apologise but the only way to stop misinformation is to challenge it or we will still be repeating myths in decades to come.

MrZ I agree that misinformation must be challenged but perhaps it can be done with less scoffing. I agree with a lot of what you say on MN but you are often so rude about it that I am cringing just reading it. I find it hard to imagine that someone who is so abrasive and critical works in education.

Please just chill out a bit.

My experience in teaching others has shown that people learn best when encouraged towards the right answer, not by being laughed at for being wrong.

Snap8 (and others) the problem is, the definition of dyslexia, as I said above. Years ago when I first got into the field, we had to find a 'big enough' gap between IQ score and reading score and then you got a dyslexia diagnosis. The trouble with this was, it made it lots easier to get the diagnosis if you were clever. If your IQ was 85 or 90, your attainment had to be practically nil to get the diagnosis. So that model was discredited (though i have still seen in used occasionally). Then, I found in practice that children with poor visual/ spatial processing and/ or poor lateralisation make the sort of cluttering/ letters jumping/ letters 'all in there but in the wrong order' mistakes that people describe above. Other children have problems with hearing and discriminating sounds which obviously makes reading and spelling hard. However the original Reason et al attempt to define dyslexia in about 1998 or thereabouts firmly defined it as phonological processing errors. This theoretically excluded that first group of poor readers from dyslexia. Then someone else (Bishop?) Found that there was no real processing difference - no different mechanism - between dyslexics and 'common or garden poor readers' (as they called them). The latter group being children who had low cognitive functioning. Then Rose wrote his report which included both the 'visual' and the 'phonological' dyslexics as it said you were dyslexic if you had been properly taught, didn't have severe learning difficulties, and yet struggled to learn to read and/ or write. In the meantime, there are various 'dyslexia screeners' using a very different model of dyslexia including things like if you are pushed with your eyes closed, do you wobble? Then certain specialist centres describe things like poor working memory and organisation issues as 'dyslexia', even in people (like your son, apparently) who read and spell at or above their chronological age. Which runs completely counter to the Rose report. Whereas I would say 'this person has a poor working memory' and 'this person has executive functioning problems'. This is the problem with the use of the term 'dyslexia'. We aren't all working from the same model nor do we all understand the same thing. Fwiw I use the Rose report as do most local authorities. Most dyslexia centres use a very different model. It needs a proper consensus, like autism and the "triad".

None of which, of course, is if any worry to the OP, whose son is far too young for there to be any concerns at all about him reversing letters.

MissWilmott I assure you it isn't my attention to scoff and I can only assume that it's the limits of the internet as opposed to face to face.

oldy Children who have poor reading and lower IQ are not dyslexic but are still poor readers and still benefit from the same type of help.
Twist if you have those difficulties plus difficulty reading and writing - you have dyslexia plus some additional difficulties.
If you don't have difficulty reading and writing as measured on your diagnostic tests you aren't dyslexic.

Drs: I don't agree. You can have moderate learning difficulties and still also be dyslexic. The key feature is, you have had appropriate teaching over time and yet still failed to make appropriate progress. Obviously if you have learning needs, the expected progress would be slower. I've been in a specialist classroom where all the kids have learning needs, and the teachers are saying 'there is something about this lad, he really isn't making the same reading progress as the others, he's really stuck". How is that different from dyslexia?

old Only if the reading is still lower - yes it's possible.

@drspouse you are incorrect. I know of several dyslexics who are perfectly capable readers in fact were on of the few readers in primary. Writing wasn't an issue but being able to express their knowledge in the written form was an issue.

He hasn't started school yet.

He gets upset when he realises he made a mistake

I mean this kindly but you need to massively step back here. In reception and year 1 the teachers told us parents very firmly that we shouldn't correct spellings or letter shapes but should only give positive reinforcement and praise. Obviously no child is going to get to being good at writing without first spending a large amount of time being bad at it. If his main experience of writing is to do something and then be told why it is wrong, it could be setting him on a path of switching off from education altogether later on.

Back off, let him enjoy getting to know letters. Let him take his time. Maybe the left handedness/dyslexia suggested up thread will be part of this but really it's too early to tell.

oldbirdy I don't want to derail the OP's thread too much but can I PM you about visual processing mentioned in your post above? DS2 has just been diagnosed as having a visual processing disability (5th centile) and I'm struggling to find info to enable me to help him. Or if any of the other experts on here could help that would also be fab!

For what it's worth, at that age I was ambidextrous and if I picked up my pencil in my right hand I wrote correctly. if I used my left hand I wrote in mirror writing.
I can still do it as a party trick.

newts you can pm but I wouldn't usually give specific advice as I obviously don't know your child. Also, I am by no means an expert in this field! I am completely confused by it.

Faithless
The DSM description says reading difficulty.

psychcentral.com/disorders/specific-learning-disorder/

Myth #4: Reversing letters is a definite sign of dyslexia

^
"^Fact: Just because a child struggles with mirror writing doesn't mean he has dyslexia. Some kids with dyslexia have trouble with it, but many don't. The majority of kids who reverse letters don't have any learning or attention issues. There isn't one underlying issue that causes reversals. A child might reverse letters because he has a poor memory for how to form letters.^"

"^Macdonald and McGrath: Myths about dyslexia, learning styles, and being a left-brain or right-brain learner were particularly widespread. A common myth about dyslexia is that it is caused by seeing letters or words backwards. Such visual theories of dyslexia were rejected decades ago as it became clear that impairments in specific language skills, particularly phonological awareness, formed the underpinnings of dyslexia. Yet, the myth can be difficult to dispel, because it is true that somechildren with dyslexia do show letter reversals when they write. However, the research shows that letter reversals are not a cause of dyslexia, but rather a consequence of the disorder. So, dispelling this myth is more complicated than saying flatly that it’s wrong. The full explanation requires an understanding of the complexities of the disorder."

No problem oldbirdy it was less specific help and more about pointing in the right direction for stuff to read online if you knew of anything helpful.

To add to the debate, DS2 regularly reversed letters etc when he was that age and still does at age 10! He also misses out words when writing even when he says the sentence he wants to write out loud first. Plus he mixes up the order of letters when writing words and misses out words when reading. He doesn't have dyslexia.

The DSM-5 proposed to removed Dyslexia (and other disorders) from the latest diagnostic manual but gave way under pressure from the Dyslexia industry

"“Learning Disorder has been changed to Specific Learning Disorder and the previous types of Learning Disorder (Dyslexia, Dyscalculia, and Disorder of Written Expression) no longer are being recommended. The type of Learning Disorder will instead be specified as noted in the diagnosis.” (Emphasis added.)"

"The DSM-5 uses the term Specific Learning Disability, and then requires a second code to specify the nature of the disability. One of three options is to code “with impairment in reading.” That is the preferred way to use the DSM-5, however, it specifically states in that same section:
“Dyslexia is an alternative term used to refer to a pattern of learning difficulties characterized by problems with accurate or fluent word recognition, poor decoding, and poor spelling abilities.” (p.67, DSM-5)"