Which school would you opt for?

[Bunnyjo]

My DD is about to enter Year 6 and now is the time to be considering secondary options for her. Whilst DH and I will guide DD, we are keen for her to have an input into where she will spend the next 7 years of her life. DD is very bright - working above expectations in all areas and particularly gifted/exceptional in mathematics (as described by her teacher).

We are currently considering 2 options; the nearest (catchment) secondary and the nearest grammar school. I will try to provide a brief overview of each.

Secondary:
Large School (1500)
Ofsted Requires Improvement
Progress 8 = -0.16
Attainment 8 = 48

Grammar:
Smaller school (850)
Ofsted Outstanding
Progress 8 = 0.28
Attainment 8 = 67

The secondary school is 4 miles away and the grammar school is 25 miles away. DD would be entitled to free transport to the secondary school, whereas transport to the grammar school would mean us dropping DD off in the nearest village (2 miles away) where she would catch a bus to the nearest city before catching a second bus to the grammar school. However, there are a few children from round here who make the same journey each day and the cost of the buses would be less than £5 per day.

We have visited both schools and I think DH and DD are quite keen on the grammar school. DH was very swayed by the top line figures of the grammar school, whereas I am more undecided; the fact is the grammar school will achieve better results by virtue of the fact it is a selective grammar school. I cannot seem to shake off the notion that being in her local school will be beneficial for friendships and that a 'bright' child will thrive in any school. Yet, DD has been an outlier throughout her primary school education and I do feel she would really benefit from being in an education setting where there will be children at her level and beyond. The grammar school also coaches gymnastics (and has a successful school team); DD is a keen gymnast and has competed in regional competitions.

There is a good secondary in our nearest city, but it is always over subscribed and, as we live so far away (8 miles), DD would not get in. The other schools in the city are on a par with, or worse than, our catchment school. I have friends with DC in both schools - the feedback I've received about the secondary is very split, with some moving their DC to other schools, whereas the feedback on the grammar school is more positive.

So, if you were faced with these options, which would you be leaning towards? Looking back over my post, I think I have already answered my dilemma, but I still have a niggling doubt about distance and convenience. If only I had a crystal ball...

Thank you for all your replies. I'll try to answer the questions you have raised and apologies for not quoting anyone.

Catchment school: Ofsted report was recent (less than 9 months) and the primary reason for it being downgraded from good to RI was based on a subset of disadvantaged children who failed to make expected progress. Obviously there were other reasons, which include KS4 curriculum not supporting high expectations and aspirations for all pupils, and pupils making significantly less progress in maths across KS3 and KS4, than in English. However, the school appointed a new head with a proven track record at the start of the school year and this report is more likely a reflection of the previous management, rather than the current. DD has visited the school many times - the secondary school maintain excellent links with all the surrounding village schools. Their facilities are good and , whilst I know of parents who have removed their children from the school, I know many parents who are really happy with the school, particularly those with children in the lower years.

Due to the catchment that the secondary serves, it is entirely possible that some of her friends will be 20-30 miles away. Although, I would hope that she will have some friends in the local area too. The school isn't oversubscribed, so transferring there at a later date would be possible.

Advantages: local, shorter travel time, she will know lots of people there and the initial transition will be far smoother.

Disadvantages: results and will it be a good fit for DD?

Grammar school: this is state, not private and is co-ed. Previous years have had a pretty even mix of boys and girls. Results are great, but with it being a selective, it would be a worry if they weren't. All of DD's extra curricular activities are in our nearest city, where the first bus would drop her back off. My parents live in the city and she could easily go to theirs before going to gymnastics and swimming. As luck would have it, both are a 5 minute walk from my parents home. Entrance test is in October; it is a combination of VR, NVR and mathematics. DD was given access to some typical questions during the open day and she breezed through them. Additionally, as she is a late August born, she will have a slight advantage as the results are age adjusted. In all honesty, I wouldn't be in a position to facilitate friendships with her school friends, who could conceivably be anywhere up to 50 miles away. DH's work is based in the town where the grammar school is situated, although he is field based, so only there at the start and end of day.

Advantages: results, extra curricular activities and could it be a better fit for DD?

Disadvantages: distance - I do think it really is a long way to travel at just turned 11, limited opportunities for friendship outside of the school day.

Local School (8 miles away): Moving to be closer really isn't an option. Conceivably, we could appeal for a place - the school has a really excellent gymnastics team which have competed regionally, so we could certainly use that as an angle for any appeal. Due to the buses in our ares, DD would still be leaving home at the same time as she would for the grammar school. However, the school is in the same city as my parents home and she would only be a short bus ride away from them.

Advantages: the school results are better than the catchment school, despite having similar intakes, gymnastics and the fact it would be less journey time than the grammar school.

Disadvantages: there is no chance of DD getting in without appeal and there is no guarantee the appeal would be successful, she will not know anyone going to that school.

To complicate matters, I hope to begin a PhD in the next 6 months; the university is 55 miles away from where we live, but I have made the same commute for the last 4 years during my undergraduate and postgraduate degree. Logistically, DD being in our local school would be beneficial. I cannot base our decision solely on what would be most convenient, though.

I think convenience is a big factor to base things on TBH. Especially if the alternatives are really very inconvenient.

The local school: have you spoken to parents of other high achievers who are happy with their kids there?

The far-away high-achiever school DD looked at: they punished the girls if they didn't read enough. This was dressed up as a reading encouragement scheme, but they openly admitted the girls were so busy with homework stuff that they didn't read enough. Plus I always prefer DC to mix with a range of people. Not just clever bots.

The friendship thing isn't the issue it seems to be. Soon they are teenagers and meet up in town anyway. DS1s best friend from school lives the far side of where we live, and so is about 50 miles away. They either hang out in town after school - going for coffee or to a film, or they stay over each other's houses or meet in town to go bowling etc.

DS2's social life is all based in the local town where his school is. Though we live in a large village, none of his peers from primary have stayed friendly with him - they just didn't get him because he was a lot geekier than them. Now he has friends in the local town. If he'd gone to the local school he'd not have had that wider pool of people to get to know and would have been billy-no-mates around all the popular village kids. Not saying your DD has similar issues, but it's not true that social life suffers just because the school is further away.

Many of you who are coming down on the side of the local school are echoing my thoughts. I do worry about the distance and time involved in such a long commute, I worry about the friendship aspect, and I worry that - whilst DD may cope with the transition, the workload and expectations, and make new friends - the extra pressure of the daily travelling will wear her down. She will be out of the house from 7:20am until around 5:30pm daily; whereas, if she attended the local school, she would be picked up from the end of our drive at 8:15 am and dropped back there at 3:45pm.

My friend's DD is particularly bright and, in many ways, reminds me of DD. She is just finishing Year 7 in the local school and is thriving.

And, yet, I cannot seem to shake the notion that the grammar school would be a better fit and afford DD more opportunities.

You've left it a bit late for prep to grammar sxhool..most people would have been preparing for a year or two. You'll need to put in some work over the summer if he's to have half a chance.

I'd go for the exam and apply to grammar. If she gets in you could always move nearer.

My son goes to a grammar 12 miles away. He has his local friends (scouts, football, kids from primary) and his school friends (who sometimes come for sleepovers mid week, inset days etc, they chat on what's app and play Xbox online ). The only downside was that he couldn't join the swim team (7am start, we do a lift share).

We are not in a grammar school area, and there really is no prep to be done. The test is multiple choice VR, NVR and maths and she really did whizz through the example questions given on the open day. The HT and admissions tutor strongly discouraged any sort of prep/tutoring explaining that children who had been prepped were invariably the ones that came unstuck once they started.

Longer term we could consider moving, but we would probably be more inclined to move to the city where my university is based (different county), rather than closer to the grammar school.

Grammar but 25 miles is way to far to travel every day. Move house.

25 miles is madness!! I wouldn't even consider it for a second. Unless you moved nearer.

I had a really long commute to school and it.was.so.so boring and tiring. Also friends all miles away so holidays were dull. I'm going to Google it as I don't even think it was 25 miles.

Ha ha it was 10 miles!! I did get the bus though and it took forever

Are you in Sutton Coldfield? Sounds just like my dc comprehensive school??

Actually no of course you arent as there are grammar schools here!

Wrt the comp there will still be a number of high attaining pupils. It sounds like you have already made your mind up though. Personally I think a 50 mile round trip a day is murder.

I think the fact you say a new Head has come in Who has s good track record. This can work wonders for a school.

I do think the grammar is a better fit for your dd, but it's just too far :(

Local school, unless a house move closer to the gramnar- and in an area your other dc would have good options if grammar wasn't for them- is possible.

No, we are not in Sutton Coldfield. We live 'oop north and in a very rural location.

Thank you everyone for your thoughts and I think we are closer to making a decision.

Since posting this, I have spoken to DD's teacher and a couple of my friends, one being a secondary teacher and the other a primary HT. All have recommended the grammar school or the local school. My two friends have both have good knowledge of the catchment school, one as a parent and the other in a professional capacity, and neither of them could say anything positive about the school - which was incredibly concerning. After speaking with them, I really cannot see any reason why we would opt to send DD there, unless we were left with no other option.

We have registered DD for the grammar school entrance test and DD is still very keen on going there.

One of my friends recommended we contact the local school, as there have been a few children from nearby (and slightly further away) who have gained a place there in previous years. In the first instance I am going to speak with the admissions dept. at the local school and we will go to their open day, in September.

No offence Bunnyjo but whatever the HT says your child will be the only one not prepared. Hop over to 11+ Forum and see what they are up to. Do lots of practice papers. My son is amazing at maths (think 100% on SATs, maths Olympiad etc etc), so didn't bother tutoring, just practice papers. He really only squeaked through on his maths: it really is very competitive.

We are considering paying for a school 25 miles away so getting a grammar for free would be a slam dunk...

As others have said, I would take the head's advice not to tutor with a pinch of salt - she will be competing against very well prepared kids (tutored for a year or two) so I would st least get her to do some practice papers under timed conditions. The CGP mixed papers are good. And check the 11 plus forum!

We've gone the selective route for both ours, over under performing local schools. It's been great for dd (year 8) but she only travels 6 miles. Ds starts in Sept and he'll be on the bus for 45 mins and leaving home just after 7 - I'm definitely worried about this! However my daughter has friends who come a long distance - two of her best friends come about 25 miles. They seem to cope and are happy there. It's better for the one who can get there on public transport I think as she then has freedom to meet up with friends after school or in the holidays. They all meet up in the city centre quite a bit.

I would try grammar first as the catchment school will always be there as a fallback.

DS travels 10 miles to school. He catches the school bus at 7.45am. 25 miles is quite a distance but you have said up north & rural so I'm guessing traffic will not be horrendous.

I think the fact your DH's work and the grandparents live in the town are huge plus points.

Social life will be more limited but DS plays online games where the whole year seems to be involved and you do end up offering more sleepovers.

I would go for the grammar, especially as your DD is keen as she must realise she won't start off knowing many there. Something it offers has a strong attraction !

25 miles seems like an unreasonable journey... I am worried about a 10 mile journey.

Thank you everyone. After much deliberation, we have decided to fully support DD in her efforts to get into the grammar school. DD has access to GL assessments through our school, who have been very supportive, and we will purchase some more to familiarise her with the format/timings over the holidays.

It is difficult to explain, but where we live there isn't the competitiveness over grammar school entrance that exists in other local authorities. I have asked the LA for this year's figures, but for 2016 entry there were just over 150 first choice preferences for 128 places, and this figure includes invalid applications - i.e. children who did not sit the entrance test. This year the admission number is 150.

Distance wise, again it is difficult to explain, but we are very rural - so travelling 20-25 miles is nothing out of the ordinary. However, over the holidays I am going to do the school journey with DD a few times to give her as much information as we can to make her/our decision.

Thank you again.

But you are told whether you have reached the required standard to get a place in the school after taking the 11 plus but before you choose the school. That has to happen now. The question isn't how many put the school down as first choice, it's how many took the 11 plus. Here, after the 11 plus they rank everyone, tell the ones who are guaranteed a place they're in, tell the twenty or so who are around the cut off point they're eligible to go on the waiting list and tell the rest they're were ranked too low to be in with a chance of a place.

So the numbers applying aren't much over the number of places. But far, far more took the 11 plus. The competitive bit goes on in September, not October to March when you make the school applications.

Which mainly means it's best to big up all the alternative schools to your dd and make the decision after the 11 plus results are out.

"However, to get a place at a very top university you really need to have more to offer than just a good set of grades, so if travelling to the grammar is going to mean she doesn't have time to do anything extra-curricularly to a decent standard it might be a bit of an own goal later."

This isn't true. The only extra curricular things that have any impact on university entrance are things that are relevant to the course you are applying for.

I was going to say what BertrandRussell just said. I'm a university lecturer and I can assure you that the need to have a list of extra curricular activities is a fallacy, unless you are thinking of a specifically vocational course with specific prerequisites (such as medicine expecting you to have put in voluntary hours in a care home or similar).

Back to the OP: personally I'd not opt for the Grammar, simply because of the distance. Putting aside the friendship issues, she will get home tired and hungry and then have to start on homework. When will she have time to just relax and unwind?