Which school would you opt for?

[Bunnyjo]

My DD is about to enter Year 6 and now is the time to be considering secondary options for her. Whilst DH and I will guide DD, we are keen for her to have an input into where she will spend the next 7 years of her life. DD is very bright - working above expectations in all areas and particularly gifted/exceptional in mathematics (as described by her teacher).

We are currently considering 2 options; the nearest (catchment) secondary and the nearest grammar school. I will try to provide a brief overview of each.

Secondary:
Large School (1500)
Ofsted Requires Improvement
Progress 8 = -0.16
Attainment 8 = 48

Grammar:
Smaller school (850)
Ofsted Outstanding
Progress 8 = 0.28
Attainment 8 = 67

The secondary school is 4 miles away and the grammar school is 25 miles away. DD would be entitled to free transport to the secondary school, whereas transport to the grammar school would mean us dropping DD off in the nearest village (2 miles away) where she would catch a bus to the nearest city before catching a second bus to the grammar school. However, there are a few children from round here who make the same journey each day and the cost of the buses would be less than £5 per day.

We have visited both schools and I think DH and DD are quite keen on the grammar school. DH was very swayed by the top line figures of the grammar school, whereas I am more undecided; the fact is the grammar school will achieve better results by virtue of the fact it is a selective grammar school. I cannot seem to shake off the notion that being in her local school will be beneficial for friendships and that a 'bright' child will thrive in any school. Yet, DD has been an outlier throughout her primary school education and I do feel she would really benefit from being in an education setting where there will be children at her level and beyond. The grammar school also coaches gymnastics (and has a successful school team); DD is a keen gymnast and has competed in regional competitions.

There is a good secondary in our nearest city, but it is always over subscribed and, as we live so far away (8 miles), DD would not get in. The other schools in the city are on a par with, or worse than, our catchment school. I have friends with DC in both schools - the feedback I've received about the secondary is very split, with some moving their DC to other schools, whereas the feedback on the grammar school is more positive.

So, if you were faced with these options, which would you be leaning towards? Looking back over my post, I think I have already answered my dilemma, but I still have a niggling doubt about distance and convenience. If only I had a crystal ball...

Would your son be at the bottom of the grammar? If so that's a particularly poor place to be.

How long is the complete trip? Any thing under 45 mins/an hour is manageable I guess. For the right school.

Personally I'd put the schools in this order

1 school 8 miles away (local friends)
2 grammar
3 local comp

DD (she) wouldn't be at the bottom, she'd definitely be closer to the top. My only slight concern is whether DS is 'grammar school material'. He is also getting GDS across the board, but is only in year 1, so many things could change between now and then.

Ironically, for both the school 8 miles away and the grammar school, she would catch the first bus at 7:30am. For the catchment school the bus would pick her up at 8.15am. She would have no goof friends going to the school 8 miles away. She may have 2-3 friends (from her extracurricular activities) going to the grammar school and most of her school friends will go to the local school, with the exception of 1 going to the local special school.

Why does your DD like the grammar? Her opinions are important in her success at the school.

I tend to agree with you about the local comp. it's headline score will be lower by virtue of intake and that progress 8 score is actually ok. They achieve more or less in line with ability. There is only a third of a grade difference between these two schools.

Larger school means more friendship choices and option choices at GCSE. Often more pastoral structure too. Why does OFSTED say it requires improvement?

You're son is not so relevant as there is such a long time between now and his choices, so choose based on your DS.

*Based on your DD

Proof read, dammit!

I would agree ShipwreckedAndComatose we are looking at moving into catchment of a requires improvement secondary but it gets that because of attainment in some small target groups. At the end of the day DH and I have decided that parental input will easily balance that out. Equally, an RI school may have more mixed intakes (hence lower outcomes) when actually bright well rounded kids will do well in either.

Try to dig a bit more OP and find out why your DC prefers the grammar. Then weigh it all up.

I have a friend who drives her child some distance for school then complains her DD has no social life! This is the thing that would swing it for me I think to the local school, but it obviously depends how much of a factor this is for you. I travelled a fair distance for sixth form and I was permanently exhausted, but again someone else might have coped with this better but it is a factor.

In order to travel to the grammar is your DD going to end up giving up all of her extra-curriculars?

I think she will have an easier ride at the grammar. It's much easier to work hard and achieve highly if that's the basic expectation and everyone around you is doing the same thing. However, to get a place at a very top university you really need to have more to offer than just a good set of grades, so if travelling to the grammar is going to mean she doesn't have time to do anything extra-curricularly to a decent standard it might be a bit of an own goal later.

Wouldn't you know her grammar test score before submitting the application? I would think you need to register for the test very soon. Tbh if you don't put the grammar first she probably wouldn't be offered it if the school you place above it can offer her a place. Thinking about your ds is a red herring, they wouldn't overlap for long at secondary, especially if dd moved again at 16.

If she is an outlier already she may really benefit from the grammar school socially - by having more of a peer group in the context of her own skills and interests. The fact that others in your area go there is a bonus, and also suggests it is less likely that other high-flyers will be in the local school.

I say this as one who was also a maths outlier, and who didn't have the experience of "just fitting in" until I got to university. Bright children may "do well" in any setting but they can also underachieve, without that necessarily being recognised as such.

Make sure she understands what the options will be like in terms of practical day to day stuff, but if she already prefers the grammar based on looking around, trust that!

7:30 sounds fine as a time to leave in the mornings.

Oh, and about your son - with that age gap they would only have a couple of years in the same school so it is even less relevant than for most. And schools change. So make decisions about his schooling independently and with him and his needs only in mind. :)

When you're considering costs you need to factor in the cost of transport to see her friends after school and at weekends if she goes to the further away school.

We live in a rural area where catchments are huge (and no practical choice of school). It costs a mini fortune in travel to after school clubs, friends' houses, birthday parties etc.

The thing is, if she goes to the grammar and its a dreadful fit, it's likely to be fairly straightforward to move to the local school and she'll not be behind in class. If she goes to the secondary and hates it, no friends, bored with the work, she won't be able to switch to the grammar as easily.

25 miles is really, really far. How will she hang out with friends at weekends? What if she stays late at school and misses the bus home? How long is the journey?

We have just made the decision that a school 16 miles away is too far for my son.

Can you move closer to the school 8 miles away?

Good point ouch. The comp may well be easier to switch to. Trying to avoid getting the choice wrong in the first place is best.

That's why digging into the OFSTED (staring with the date it was done) and asking what is being done to address it would be key. It may well be that it's the higher ability that are not being pushed, but this is not a given with comprehensives. My daughter is at a comp (ending year 7) and has certainly been pushed this year. And, being large with no Grammars to cream off, there are plenty of higher ability children in her year if this is where she chooses to make her friends from.

I think this might be a private "grammar".

OP said almost nothing about the 1500kid-local school that I can't comment on it.

Boy I'd hate that distance. Kids can do their homework on bus & they get a whole social life going during the commute, but it's still, I'm guessing, 2.5+ hours a day. Very exhausting. Crap if they want to have any other interests. Potentially Hellish if they get involved with the school play & have lots of weekend & after school rehearsals.

FWIW, I had a similar decision & banned DD from the far away amazing-results school until she was at least 14yo. By then she was thriving & loved local school, obviously no reason to move, so all good.

I went to a big comprehensive and then sent my children to grammars. I would have been classed as gifted in some areas and even in a big school there were not enough others working at the level I was capable of. I was a trial to my teachers......Son number 2 is very, very good at maths. We did look at the comprehensive but their expectations of universities for their top students were woefully limited. Son number 2 got into grammar with tuition to help with the non verbal reasoning questions and thrived there. He is at a Russell Group uni and doing well. They all had to be out of the house by 7.30am for all the secondary schools and we did a lot of miles at the weekends for parties but hanging out after school is online or weekends.

On the other hand an improving comprehensive can be a good place to be. It will require some digging into ofsted's report. What was their opinion of leadership and management? What has changed since the report?

25 miles? Bloody hell.

My DS is also going into year 6. He is complaining about the fact he will have to walk for 20 minutes....

25 miles is too far unless you live in a very rural area.

I'd go for the grammar. If your DD is bright, there will actually be far more friendship choices for her, a there will be more people of a similar ability for her to connect with. The work ethic is likely to be stronger and the pastoral care will be tailored to her needs and less likely to be dissipated and having to cope with the far wider range of needs that are required in a comp.

If several children make the journey form your area, would it be worth looking into getting a shared minibus style taxi service? It could work out cheaper. Or would you consider moving nearer the school?

I wouldn't base your choice of school for DD on what yoru DS may need later on. Each child has different needs. I know loads of people who have one child in a grammar or private school and anothe rin a comp. I used to be a bit skeptical about this, but realised they're actually just being really thoughtful about where each child will thrive. Thats what matters. Ime bright children thrive better surrounded by similar children. I don't just mean academically but socially too. We all love being surrounded by like minded people who are on our wavelength. She might have more chance of that at a grammar.

I can see your dilemma.

On paper, the grammar school definitely looks like a better fit for your dd. However the sticking point is the distance. 25 miles is just too much I think.

I chose to not apply to my local feeder secondary school. Although it was not RI by OFSTED, the results aren't amazing and I felt a bit lacklustre about it when we looked around. I chose a rural secondary comp about 3 miles away. No pavements to walk, so it's all by bus and car. My dd sometimes gets the bus at £3 a day, or I pick her up (I'm self employed). Even this journey sometimes can seem too much. She was recently in a drama production and I was doing journeys nearly 5 times a day!
However the nice thing is her friends are fairly scattered as it's a wide catchment area. Some are v rural while some live closer to her in the city.

25 miles is huge. Exhausting. However, my Dneices used to attend Private School where they travelled that much. However it was a designated school coach and it was very sociable.

I know parents at the local comp we rejected. I hear good and bad things. I do know dcs who have excelled at sport there, also gained 6 A* GCSEs and gone on to study at prestigious schools for A level - however like you, I feel a large part of this is parental involvement.

Grammar. I was a bright kid at an underachieving comp and it was fucking awful.

People come from miles for ds2's grammar. I think they are bonkers - it's a bit of an exam factory - really not worth the long treck.

They also come from miles for ds3's free school which I understand more as it has a very different approach to education than most schools.

Ds1 is severely disabled so one of my criteria for choosing a school was that the boys could get there by themselves. I actually think learning to travel around independently is one of the most useful parts of secondary education so would factor that in. It sounds as if there is a bus your dd could take to the grammar so may not be an issue but 25 miles is a really long way to do every day. Ds3's insists on leaving for school at what I see as the crack of dawn (about 7.45am) as he likes to get there immediately the doors open at 8am (registration isn't until 8.50!) so catching a bus at 7.15 (have I remembered that correctly?) seems really early to me. How long would your dd spend on the bus each day?

Is the grammar single sex? Ds2 is in a single sex school, ds3 mixed and I much prefer mixed. (Ds2 is okay as he does a lot of extra curricular stuff with girls so has a lot of female friends - but I can't see him staying there post 16 partly due to the issues of being a single sex school).

That 25 mile journey will impact your lives in so many ways. There is no room for error with a journey like that. We did a horrendous journey for three years and it wore us all down. It got old, it really did. My DD looked so pale and washed out all the time. It was just too long and such a draining start to the day.

The grammar school ticks many boxes but that journey would absolutely be the nail in the coffin. Go with the closer school. I can't tell you how important close friendships and a sense of local community are to teens. It's such an important part of their well-being. And good health and rest is everything!

I was a bright kid at a grammar and it was fucking awful also. Got good A Levels but the constant competition and one-upmanship really did me in. I chose that transfer from comprehensive too so I only had myself to blame I guess.

You need to choose what's best for your DD. Your son might need something totally different! It's too early to tell. Also your DD may have left her secondary school having completed GCSEs by the time your son starts.

24 miles is really far to travel To school but 7.30am is a reasonable start time. My Son travels 10 miles to school but has to leave the house at 7.10am as the traffic on his route is dreadful.
Based on my son who was an outlier in primary school and was never happy I would go with the grammar option. I know that my
Son would rather be in his current school where he is happy, challenged academically and fits in than be in the local comp which he could walk to in 10 minutes.