Why can't parents ask this question?

[Creole]

Why is it a sin to ask how your child is performing in comparison to the rest of the class? Surely this is what a lot of parents want to know.

Or does this question make you sound like a very pushy parent?

Gosh yes I'd love to know. But only if my child is top of the class

Which I think is the point. They can't all be above average, which is want parents what to hear.

Perhaps asking how they are doing in terms of what is expected of their age group might be a more PC way to get the info you want.

You can ask this question and we have done so but the teachers never gave a real answer and remained very vague.
I also don't know why this is, when I was a child parents and pupils always wanted to know and were kept informed all the time(german state school).

But what would it tell you? Unless you also knew how the class was performing compared to national average or something. Do you really want to know whether your child is so much better than his best mate, or your neighbours child? Anyway you can tell to a certain extent by the maths or literacy groups he/she is in.

They possibly think that some (not all) parents will start conversations is the playground
"Oh well mrs So and So told me DS1 was top of the class. Where is your child in comparison to the rest of the class? Bottom, oh well then".
Knowing some of the parents at DS school this is what they would do

frenchleave, no, my children struggle, at least in certain areas, and I still want to know where they are, where they're particularly weak so I can support them better. You can call this pushy but I don't see anything wrong with helping them rather than allowing them to drift allong and fall behind even more.

I hate being told 'oh, everything is fine blabla, all boys tend to be late with reading/writing etc.' when clearly they're not fine at all.
I just feel I can't believe the teachers any more, which is sad I think.

But have you actually asked them directly?

My ds is in a v. academic grammar school and I don't particularly want to know where he is in the class order because they're all by definition pretty bright, and even if he's in the lower half, it doesn't take anything away from him.

If however he was in a comp, I'd probably be paranoid as well as there would be much more variety of ability and therefore class position would mean something.

Parents are the last ones to be able to figure this out, objectively. I have a lot of contact with DS class (including acting as parent-helper) and only just realised he's in the upper set (of only 2) for maths, literacy.

Easy to be in denial about how your child was doing (if badly) and not realise. And easy to miss that they would benefit from being extended more, if teacher didn't bluntly say that they were top of their literacy/maths group.

It's just part of understanding your child's entire school experience, is that so bad?

Disliking your child because they're not top or you view them as a swot, now THAT would be bad.

I completely agree, paranoid. I want to know, so that I can better understand my DCs abilities and therefore support them to be the best that they can be, wherever that happens to fall on the spectrum. I get infuriated with the label of "Pushy Parent". Why can't we be "Concerned Parent" or even just "Interested Parent". We waste so much time, effort and emotion trying to read between the lines of what the teachers are telling us, when it could all be very simply dealt with. A school near me (although NOT my own DCs school) gives the children's attainment levels on the report, and then shows where your child is working in comparison to the rest of the class. Completely anonymous and no-one can gossip.
The reports themselves are not worth the paper they are written on - totally descriptive in nature. " DD can describe the properties of all the 2D and 3D shapes." Well that's lovely, but what SHOULD she be able to do at her age? Should she have done this a year ago, or is she bang on average, or is she above average?
Aaargh!

I had parents eve this week and posted on here asking for help with what I could ask as I'm so aware of the limited time I end up not knowing what I can say. People did suggest I ask this very question, which until now I've thought was a bit of a no no. So, as MN'rs said I could, I did and was given a direct answer by both my dd's teachers.

It was very useful as dd2 is in reception and so she's early in her academic career (so formal - I know) and it was good to get a grip on how she's doing. In dd1's case, she's been struggling for a while and it was good to hear that she's in middle groups for all subjects as she was in the bottom last year (which she told me).

So, I think it's a perfectly reasonable question to ask - who cares if they think your pushy, you are the only ones who have your childrens lives as top priority.

but surely it entirely depends on what the rest of the class is like?

you could happen to have a not so bright class so your child being top of it actually doesn't mean that much or more importantly, your child could be in a very bright class and be near the bottom but actually be doing fine (which would then worry you if you heard that)

surely, it's more valuable to find out if they are achieving what is expected of them (which is what you are normally told)?

at the end of yr2, you get a SATs mark anyway which gives you an indication of how they are performing

I can assure you, as FIS says, that the smugness on knowing your child is top of the class is severely undercut by the conviction that the class must therefore be composed of not exactly the sharpest tools in the box, dammit.

It's not always that straightforward though, foxinsocks. There may be other issues. You're right, the SATs give you an indication - but that's all. The teacher is the one who can give you more specific and detailed information, but doesn't always do that. My DDs levels have given me an indication, and I'm trying to get to the bottom of the detail. I'm worried that she's being left to drift and coast because she has already achieved above her target levels for year end. She's not the only one. Her "table" all seem to be around the same levels (although my only source of info is DD herself)and it may well be that they are all being given different work to the rest of the class to stretch them, but I don't know this for sure. I, too, had parents evening last week, and came none the wiser.

You can develop subtle ways of asking that don't seem too obvious - I've been practising

Like asking about the key targets for that year and what you should be working on with your child. etc.

But I think teachers are partly reluctant because young children change so much and if a parent gets the idea that their child is doing really well, or badly, they might get stuck on that idea and the child might be doing totally differently at another time. one of my dds has been all over the place, in terms of position in class. top, middle, bottom groups. and she's still only 6.

lol MI

but fedupinkent, knowing her position in class isn't going to help you with that detail. That's information the teacher could/should be able to share with you.

Knowing where your child is in comparison to the rest of the class is useless information. And some parents do use it as playground gossip. Teachers should tell you how your child is doing in terms of what is expected of that year group and let you know if your child is reaching their potential - if the teacher doesn't then that is what you should ask.
We put comments on our reports about what skills or knowledge a child has gained over the year because it would be a short report if we just put 'X is above average for numeracy!' It should also illustrate what your ds or dd is good at.

But it's the absence of the detail that has left me wanting to know her position. That is, if the teacher won't say to me, "DD is in a group who are all doing very well, and we are giving them extension work..." then at least by knowing her position, I get an idea of what's going on. It's not about being told that my DD is top of the class, it's about knowing that the staff know her, well, and her abilities, and are helping her to be the best that she can be.

OK, Fedupinkent. Imagine this. The teacher says, nicely and with explanations, that your child is actually bobbing around at the bottom of the class but is working hard and they're doing their considerable best to stretch him/her.

I personally would be despite myself not hog-whimpering wild about this news and would be distracted by thoughts of Guilt and the Need To Stretch, not to speak of a secret conviction that said teacher had in fact grossly misunderstood and underestimated my child's capacities.

None of which would be exactly helpful, least of all to the poor kid.

what year is she fedupinkent?

I think the teacher should be telling you whether she is/isn't working at expected levels (and reasons why if she isn't) - if your teacher isn't telling you that, I would complain to the head teacher that you are not getting enough feedback at parents' evenings. I still think, though, that finding her position in class won't help you understand how she is doing.

at my big boys school they tell you position in class and yeargroup in every subject

Message withdrawn

When your child is given a national curriculum level it tells you how well your child is doing in comparsion to the rest of the country. By looking at a the QCA website you can see what a child who is level 2B in reading can do. There is details of what the average level is in different subjects at different ages.

For example if a child is level 3 at the age of seven it means they are doing really well. If they are less than 2C then they have achieved less than the majority of children of their age.

I find it more useful to know that my son can do X, if he is level Y and I can then see what my son needs with to progress.

The standards reached by children in schools varies a lot. Child who is achieving level 1 at the age of seven and is top of the class is not doing well academically.

I expect that if they measured the national curriculum levels at some of the top private schools mentioned on mumsnet (like the ones Xenia recommends) then ALL the seven years olds would be at least level 3. A child who is bottom of the class at such a school should not feel ashamed of their class position in anyway.

What matters is that a child makes progress. Being top of a class that is going nowhere is not good.

"I still want to know where they are, where they're particularly weak so I can support them better" But I still don't see why a position in any particular class will help you with that. If you have a class of slow readers for example, your child might be top of the class but still be slow. The teacher can tell you how he/she is doing relative to what he/she should be doing. I'd hate it if I thought my child was being defined by how well/badly he was doing relative to his classmates.

LOL at the suspicion that the other kids aren't the sharpest tools in the box...

It isn't a 'sin' but why do you think it will be helpful?

Please feel free to avoid the next bit if you are bored by educational theory

You can mark kids work in a vaiety of different ways.

You can do the old style 75/100, came 5th.

You can do the modern, Attainment A, effort D stuff.

Or you can just correct the errors, tell the kids what they have done well on and tell them how to improve, so for example, 'You made a mistake on the calculations, you understand density well, to improve, go over the calculations remember that density = mass/volume'

Trials in classrooms show that children do best when they are simply told how they have done and what they need to do to improve.

They do least well when they are given marks and a position in the class. Why is this? One of a few reasons. Firstly knowing that you are 5th in the class doesn't help you to get any better. Indeed, coming top may make you complacent and possibly lazy. Comming bottom, especially for kids who work had may end up with them switching off and feeling that school isn't for them.

Even being given grades can have the same effect. The bright kids with As for attainment and Ds for effort know that they are baright and that they don't need to work. Not so bright kids who get Ds for attainment and As for effor end up thinking 'Why bother trying?'

Ultimatly wht matters is that you child makes progress and reaches their full potential. Knowing where they are in the class isn;'t going to help this one little bit. As other have said they could be top of the class in a bottom set, or bottom of the class in a super smart set. What does it tell you that helps them to learn?

Nothing. And it can be harmful to their self esteem, and work ethic.

People interested in this sort of stuff should google 'Beyond the black box' and formative assessment.

Amazing as it seems, teachers do sometimes have good reasons for doing stuff

Thanks for that Martianbishop but YOU MISSED THE POINT ENTIRELY.
The CHILD and the TEACHER may know what it needs to do to improve BUT THE PARENT DOESN?T. We get paranoid and ?pushy? because teachers don?t tell US. We only see you for 5 minutes at each parents? evening (and all we get is ?she?s doing nicely?) and get an end-of-year report (when it?s too late to remedy anything).
We only want to know what's going on.