School budgets - how would outcomes change if we went right back to basics?

[Emphasise]

Teachers cost money, good ones worth their weight in gold, most schools spend well over 80% of their budget on salaries.

But the other 20%, what really effect would it have on the children, especially in primary schools if (and these are all based on upcoming or ongoing costs in my school)

• smart boards aren't replaced - return to basic black/whiteboards
• ditto old children's Lap tops/pcs/ipads
• PE is playground games that don't need equipment or specialist coaches?
• Focus us on teaching Maths and English rather than art, science, cooking or other subjects that use materials
• They used scrap paper and pencils rather than individual whiteboards (when I started in school I couldn't believe how much was spent on whitebiard pens! 10 % of the curriculum budget in my small infant school this year)

-Remove LSAs

Anyway it's just occurred to me that in my 1970s primary school we didn't have any of these things. Was the education the children were getting so much worse?

I don't have an opinion on it, it's just a thought for discussion, as schools are going to have to change something.

Pupil teacher system? I would hesitate to joke about that. Schools are already choosing NQTs for vacancies over experienced staff because it's a lower staffing cost.

Volunteers are replacing some staff). It's already happening.

Yup, hoping staff leave and not quite yet worked out how to avoid a deficit otherwise for us for next year, unless the government sorts out the mess it has created with school funding, so I would agree with that for primary and secondary, Curlyhaired.

And funnily enough my primary aged son has come home today and told me that the big news in his class is that the classroom has been rearranged so that they are now sitting in rows. Makes me wonder whether they are going to try and squeeze a few more bums on seats in the near future. I hope not. I hope it's the teacher's choice because she thinks the layout might work better.

Oh yes - cash strapped LAs and too many children are forcing a few more bums on seats in maintained schools, anyway.

that way it is easier to get 50 in a classroom.

Already happening. I've heard of schools where teachers are teaching massive groups (well over 50) of kids in the hall for some lessons - mainly maths where they can't hire staff.

I'd like your suggestions for a school that doesn't have LSAs (except for1 child with EHCP) doesn't have class sets of laptops/tablets/iPads, has basic white boards, doesn't employ specialist coaches and uses Sainsbury's vouchers to top up sports equipment ...

Back to basics; a large manually employed workforce who don't need functional literacy or numeracy, who will die at 60 anyway, where women don't need to be in school beyond 14 because they won't be working long anyway. Sports aren't needed what with everyone being on a calorie restricted diet, walking 5 miles to school and going into manual work. SEN kids don't go to school. Discipline is easily enforced by force or worse (don't mention the Catholics). Yup, sounds viable.

I wonder if outcomes would change at all if we got rid of the increasing number of middle managers who don't teach.
My DC go to (what has been) a well funded London primary school.
They have quite a list of non- teaching staff

Head
2 Deputy Heads
2 Assistant head
Senco
IT manager
Business manager

Most of these posts are relatively new, it used to be just the head out of class and a part time Senco (new head came in and promoted friends)
Has always been a great school. Lots of talk at the moment about cutting pretty much everything apart from these. These are apparently 'indispensable'. The deputy and assistants seem to be responsible for over seeing teaching. It's a joke, my oldest DC was taught by one of them a few years ago - one of the weakest teachers they ever had. Youngest DC has a fab experienced teacher, why is money being wasted by someone constantly checking her performance. I am a senior professional, I would walk away if my company hired someone whose sole job was to check I was doing mine. It's ridiculous.

Just to add - we're not even an academy. I've talked to friends who have DCs in academies and it seems even worse there.

What Athrawes said.

Our primary - one form entry has a non teaching head (who teaches sometimes to cover) and a non teaching since/deputy who actually teaches a lot to cover sickness (e.g One teacher having cancer treatment) etc....poorly funded schools have very little leadership costs. However our leadership is very good and the school gets good outcomes. I feel slightly when I see how much other schools have and we are facing cuts. Not sure where we are going to cut from....

IMO, there's nothing wrong with rows of desks for older children, and they are quite possibly preferable to sitting around tables. It's what they do in Finland, which many people cite as a beacon of educational excellence. This is a good article about it:

globallessonsonlearning.com/2017/02/23/rows-vs-groups-have-your-cake-and-eat-it-with-creative-planning/

and this thread gives some parents' views on it (apologies for promoting own thread!):

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/primary/2884382-Should-older-primary-children-be-sitting-around-tables

There nevertheless remains a difference between rearranging a classroom because it works better that way and rearranging it because the class size is going up from 30 to 35...

Well, obviously, Round But Curly said I hope it's the teacher's choice because she thinks the layout might work better., so I thought she might be interested in some research....

Fair enough!

I know schools that are operating with classes of 40 and a single teacher due to funding cuts

In other countries parents purchase supplies (books/art/pens) to a list given out at the beginning of the school year. And there are no uniforms. Personally, I think that this is a much better use of money than the English system.

Still, 2nd hand state school uniform, except in the state schools which have silly items, like compulsory blazers, is far, far cheaper than owning enough outfits to avoid bullying when wearing what you like.

Clothing related bullying just doesn't happen in countries where there is no uniform. No one wears expensive clothes to school - just jeans and t-shirts.

I know it isn't actually true that clothing related bullying doesn't happen in countries without uniforms, though, as I have relatives living overseas.

It just isn't an issue. School uniform accentuates rather than reduces the emphasis on clothing.

That depends, really. I personally never knew anyone to be bullied over their school uniform and never attended schools where the uniform was expensive. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, of course, any more than bullying someone about wearing the same clothes all the time, or the wrong clothes, etc, doesn't happen overseas.

I think it's more time wasted on adolescent rebellion than bullying that you may be thinking about, BoboChic.