Bridging gap between state & private schools (interested after reading below paying for private threads)

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Like all parents dh & I want the very best education for our preschool aged dc. We will never be able to afford private school fees & the state schools are fine, we have heard no bad reports. We would like to think that in years to come our dc will be just as well able to fight for uni places & good job & will be able to compete with privately educated & those who have come from outstanding primaries & secondaries.
How can we bridge the gap? What can we do at home to extend their learning etc so they don't feel inferior or not good enough to those who have had thousands spent on their education...?

And I would highly recommend things like Guides or Scouts that give lots of opportunities to try different things such as camping, putting on shows, first aid, learning skills, charity work.....and may offer the chance to mix with a wider range of people than at school - also a very useful skill. They often join up with other groups across the county or nationwide and the kids learn to mix with those they don't know - which some children don't get much experience of or feel scared of.......its just about learning to be in unfamiliar environments with different people without feeling scared, but excited about the opportunities.

LAMDA! How could I forget? I did elocution lessons, and it has stood me in good stead. It did iron out my (not attractive) accent, which my mother wanted. The benefit though was in personal presentation, clarity of speech, performance... We had to talk about a postcard for sixty seconds without being repetitive or using 'erm'. We were taught specific skills and had lots of performance practice.
It's a very old fashioned word, and accents are celebrated now but the other skills are worth having. I still know a few Shakespearean speeches not particularly useful.

When I was at school and at DS's school they do Speech and Drama classes - new name for Elocution? It wasn't about getting rid of the Yorkshire accent though!

Doing things with children needs to be a little more than leaving them to their own initiative - because first they need to learn that there are things out there to do. So with little ones, yes, try activities that may be mainly your choices to start with. But not too many at once, and don't back out of activities without giving them a "proper try", within reason. (eg, music lessons are a commitment and you need to support them to help enough practice happen until they see the results).

But a real biggy is to watch out for things your children ARE interested in and run with those interests. So when they ask questions about something, follow your own explanation with "lets look this up" or a trip to a pond in a park or a museum or a library or whatever might link in. Music has really become a thing in our family - but started from me showing instruments to the children, and letting them hear choral evensong. "When can I do that?" asked the eldest age 5, and the rest is history ... But I'm sure lots of other families with other abilities have some similar tales of the child's first interest.

Your DC will be absolutely fine in the state system - because they come from a supportive home background with parents who value education. This has always been the case and always will be the case

I had a supportive home background with parents who value education, went to a mediocre state school, had a shit time, was bullied terribly and left with grades well below my potential. So, no, it's not "always the case" unfortunately.

THIS IN SPADES What Sammysquiz said The grades I left school absolutely do not reflect my success in my career. If I look back and think - what if I had gone to a better school that actually took pride in success - then I believe I should have come of school with a clutch of straight As and matching cultural capital which should have take me until I was in my 20s to figure out who Sullivan & Gilbert are. Yes, I had supportive parents but the shit schooling legacy left me mentally inhibited for best part of 20 years. I'm in my 40s now and have only just got my shit together and not feel like 'I shouldn't be here' where I am in my career.

The MAJORITY of my peers are grammar school and private school educated. My previous 2 bosses came from Eton. And I'm in tech (which is supposed to be a great level of entry unlike medicine for example).

It is no small matter when at least half of my peer group come from private school and grammar and they in turn have refused to go down state comp route with their children (even if they are completely aligned to the political left - it's a completely different story when it comes to their children). When just 7% of the UK students are privately educated, I think it accounts for 50% of my companies employees (from an HR insider).

Yes, of course you will always have outliers of X billionaire or millionaire entrepreneur who was not private/grammar school educated but if you are on 6 figure+ salary (£100K is the mean salary where I am) or you are in a very senior management/board level post, the pendulum is swung very unfavourably.

Now here's a fact in my social circle - parents that I know who have their kids in grammar or private do so because they want to minimise unfavourable peer group. Majority of state school teachers are good at what they do, they know their subjects, they have studied to degree level, if not beyond. What makes a shit school is not the buildings, the headteacher or the teaching. It's the intake.It's a social problem and not enough parents are taking responsibility for it (for whatever reason and the reasons are complex- and I have no solution for it). Fact.

I'm sure I'll be completely shot down with my views but in my personal opinion - the biggest thing you can do to close the gap - is to hammer in confidence and belief. To not be led down the path of untoward peer influence and to strive for absolute personal best.

Typo, sorry, crap grammar - ' should have not take me until I was in my 20s to figure out who Gilbert & Sullivan were. '

Well we are no there yet. Ds (13) is at a superselective grammar, we hope dd will do the same in 18 months. I would advise tutoring from year 4, sports clubs (ds played football, dd rides) no excuses they make a commitment to do it and they have to it, even if they don't feel like it. Ditto 20 mins homework each night in year 4, rising to 45 minutes in yr5. If the school don't set it (and they don't) I do. We isis ten to radio 4 ds undertands the political landscape. I wwas stateschoolong educated and entertainment news to do medcine, i blame the drama classes and part time jobs from14-18

Sorry for typos phone is being mad

Now here's a fact in my social circle - parents that I know who have their kids in grammar or private do so because they want to minimise unfavourable peer group.

It doesn't have to be private/Grammar. Part of bridging the gap can be sharp-elbowing your way into a naice leafy comp (if possible). This report has a nice diagram on page 13 that shows the various impacts on DC - not only the parents but the also the environment that the parents engineer, amongst other things.

I must say that your set do seem to be falling into group-think which is not healthy.

senua I actually do agree with you. My set don't really contribute to the good of society in that way you are thinking. They fund raise, damn they are on charity executive boards, they volunteer provide free legal counsel etc, they do charity runs, they even have their own business and employ others. They do contribute. However they will try to remove as many obstacles they can to give their children access to an outstanding education. And if I speak to the men (I'm in a male dominated industry ), they are even more adamant than their wives that they will not tolerate a setting that impedes on the education of their offspring . It's a very capitalist mindset.

One of my dc got a place in a super selective school (at secondary level) that has an attached preparatory. He was telling me that he would like to send his future children there as he believes that this has given them a head start. They all played rugby at a competitive level since early on, had the best facilities in school, small-ish classes and a high level of not only financial resources, but parental involvement. I could pick out the prep boys by the way they carry themselves; they seem very self assured and have excellent social etiquette. The parents of said boys seem to be very close too, it would appear that the school acts as a social network. They are generally high achieving parents (think surgeons, barristers etc) so have a good set of contacts when it comes to finding work experience opportunities for their dc. They also have high aspirations for their dc in terms of academia.

It's all well and good saying that it is very achievable for a comp child to go to Oxford. That really depends on the comp, which again depends on the area, which usually means that the more money that is available the better the chances are. It makes me really sad and angry actually.

OP I think it is important to model good lifestyle choices. Having a wide variety of activities as a family helps (arts as well as sport) and exposure to good reading material, along with an awareness of international current events etc. I do think it is very important to be true to yourself though, it is obvious when aspiring social climbers push themselves to do things that they are not actually passionate about and I believe that that can be counter productive.

When my kids were teens I couldn't tell the difference between the behaviour or their friends based on whether they went to private, grammar or comp. Although the grammar school kids seemed to use a lot more drugs than the others 😂

As long as you have bright, motivated and well behaved kids then there no reason that they can't do well at a reasonable comp. Im not opposed to private school and I would have moved my children to one if i thought they needed it however, I don't like the elitist environment private schools ad grammar schools promote. I think it's hard to separate being proud of your school with feelings of being more special or superior to others. There is a fine line between private school confidence and private school arrogance.

This might seem to detract from the discussion buy my DGD is privately educated (yr 10) at present. She's very happy and has friends, very small classes, opportunities for sport, drama, art clubs etc. etc. Most girls (all girls school) come from wealthy families - some have 4 or 5 sisters in the school! DGD's parents are making a sacrifice. The thing is though that come holiday time DGD has little contact with her friends as they are all off ski-ing in the Feb half term and other winter sports. Likewise Easter and in the summer they all have villas and spend about one week of the 10 weeks holiday they get on foreign holidays, safaris, villas, island hopping, cruises etc etc. Had she gone to the local comp (where she would have been fine) she would be out and about with her friends who live locally and who she was at primary with - it's the same at weekends - they are all ferried about and seem to have numerous commitments.

I recall the best part of being a teenager was spending time with my friends and I feel sad that my DGD has little opportunity for this kind of "hanging out" together. I see groups of girls her age in the shopping malls and out ad about giggling ad having fun ..................BUT she's very happy at school.

I think Catrina's point varies a lot between independent schools. We educate our children privately, and I was worried beforehand about everyone else living in mansions and jetting off to Barbados in the holidays, because we can't afford that type of life-style and I didn't want them to feel left-out. But it hasn't been like that in the slightest - there are some mega-rich families, but the majority of families are much like us and have mainly UK holidays, normal cars, and can't afford the swanky extras that I imagined everyone would have. There was far more of a "keeping up with the Jones" environment in their former state school!

what gap?

This gap.

But that's just statistics. And a lot of private schools are selective so have brighter students so therefore get better results. I've never understood the '2 years ahead' thing. If that case why don't they take GCSEs in year 9 ? And every single exam must be an A star as they are supposedly at A level standard. I can only comment on my own sprogs here and they have handfuls of A/A stars so I'm not sure what benefit a private school would have given them. One rows at a national standard, one plays hockey and the other is the biggest maths geek 🤓 this side of MIT (where they are off to in Sept to do a Phd). We have not a lot of money but they have ambition not based on salary but job satisfaction as they know you can be v happy poor. State schools work - they just as 93% of the population use them and most do pretty well.

What kind of comp was it mumsneedwine? In terms of Ofsted/ area? I think you and I need to be careful from extrapolating from our own DC, because clearly both your DC and my DC aren't representative of the usual outcomes from schools, whether state or independent.

Yes, let's ignore the statistics, and look at anecdotal evidence instead

Sounds like your DC went to a good state school, but it's a false sweeping statement to say state schools work, and most people do well. It sadly is not the case in all areas. Our local state secondary is awful, and the vast majority of children there do not do well at all.

Yes I would say most students do not do pretty well - certainly not in MN terms - from one of the nearest comprehensives to our home. It's very easy to be complacent if one's own DC have done well in the state sector but the fact is that far too many DC woefully under achieve. My own DC would have woefully underachieved had they gone to that school just a few miles further away rather than the school they did in fact attend.

This gap.
so on average, there is a rough estimate that students in the private sector do an average of 6% better on a measurement with confidence limits of around 10%?

You do realise that means absolutely nothing, don't you. Even ignoring the account in the same article of state schools out performing private ones.

Even ignoring the account in the same article of state schools out performing private ones

It says some of the "leading" ones do. And of course if you live near one of those schools of course it makes sense to send your children to. But there's a hell of a lot more children who don't have that advantage, and then end up in state schools which don't meet their needs. There's a quarter of a million children in the UK at underperforming state schools, and as much as its shit and unfair, there's a "gap" between their predicted outcome and that of a child who's been educated privately.

There's a quarter of a million children in the UK at underperforming state schools, maybe there is, I don't know where you've got that figure from, but I certainly know a lot of children underperforming at state schools!

I don't think they are underperforming BECAUSE they are at state schools though.

In fact I know quite a few who have been kicked out of private schools because they are underachievers.

As well as charging fees of £10-15,000 a year or whatever, did you know that a lot of private schools also fundraise and ask each parent to give a monthly donation to their school?

It's not unusual for a private school to have ano annual philanthropic income of 7 figures. Meanwhile we at state schools never outright ask for a simple donation but instead put hours into fundraising events which raise a thousand pounds or so but if you totted up the resources that went into them they probably don't break even.

that goes with the pittance the state schools get per pupil (isn't it around £2-3,000 depending on how many pupil-premium kids there are.

At the moment if it was widely suggested that schools whilst remaining government funded should also all be charities and should ask all parents to please (optionally of course) give 1% of post-tax income to the school, well there would be a huge number of angry voices against. There would be strong arguments that such asks are inappropriate as we already pay for the school with tax.

if we had a culture change that instead had us all convinced that obviously giving more to our children's school is the right thing to do, they would be in a much better position to offer a brilliant education.

I would happily give £1000 a year to my children's school (way more than that 1%) if I was part of a large number of others doing similar. But if no one else was doing it it would be a drop in the ocean and I'd be being a mug.