Scottish Highers and Advanced Highers?

[madnessdescending]

We've recently moved to Scotland from England and I'm struggling a bit with understanding the Scottish secondary system.
My older DD has been educated in England, doing 10 GCSEs and then 3 A'levels, which allowed a wide range of subjects, and I think she is coming out if it quite well educated.
My younger DD is in S1 in Scotland. I've been told that she will be allowed to do either 6 or 7 subjects to S4 level, and then will have to reduce that to a maximum of 5 for Highers. Then there is only one year in 6th form, with a small number of either Advanced Highers, and/or further Highers. Then will need to leave school at that stage (a year earlier than in England), to go to Uni.
So as I understand it, she will be dropping to only 6 or 7 subjects very early, and then in the 5th year will be studying a maximum of 5 subjects, at an age when her sister was studying and taking exams in 10 subjects. This presumably means that she will have to make a decision between arts, sciences or humanities very early. I don't see how she will be able to combine these, as is possible in England, or to fit in any "extras", such as music Higher.
I feel pretty sad for her, and have no idea how she will choose to specialise so early. And then of course start her university course a year early too. She is an all rounder, and has no idea which subjects she will decide to drop at such an early stage. How can this result in a good all round education?
Any insights very welcome. At the moment I'm considering teaching her some subjects at home, so that she will have a reasonably wide education despite only being able to study 5 at school.
There is also absolutely no ability setting at her school, and she is finding the work very easy, and is getting almost no homework.

S5 is the equivalent of Y11 I always understood it was S4

Year 11 is rhey year they sit the GCSE? S4 is when we sit the nationals.

Don't base it on age, February is the cut off in Scotland. The range is huge as if you choose to send them at 5 instead of 4 they still go into primary 1, whereas English schools until recently made them go into Y1

But that's the problem - there are no "equivalents" due to the intake being different and the system being totally different.

Of course there are. You sit exams in year 11. The Scottish equivalent is S4. Regardless of intake or age, as I said.

Lots of private school in Scotland especially those around Edinburgh use the English exam system if you are so keen on that?

My Dd is a January birthday so went to Secondary at 11.5. She sat and passed 8 Nat 5s, 5 Highers (all A grades, and one a crash Higher) and 3 Advanced Highers (ABB - equivalent to A*AA at A-level in UCAS points). She had unconditional offers for Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen Unis before she had turned 17. It's perfectly possible to do well in Scottish education.

There is an issue of some schools simply not allowing pupils to study 7 or 8 subjects at national 5. It's a poor show imo.

I agree, I think 6 isn't enough. My Ds was the final year of SGs and took 8 credits, Dd was the first year of Nat 5s and also took 8. The Nat 5s appeared to be more difficult and their school has now settled on a max of 7 in 4th year which seems reasonable.

S4 is the equivalent of Y11. People get confused by the 6 month difference in age cut-offs - and the fact that Scotland is more flexible and allows kids who are not yet 5 to defer to the following year (in practice, only Jan/Feb and possibly Nov/Dec birthdays).

Both systems have 13 years "formal" schooling, in both of which the last 2 are "optional". Reception is an "additional" year which is not compulsory.

Highers are roughly the equivalent of AS levels and Advanced Highers of A Levels, but they have different strengths.

I went to a predominantly English University - albeit in Scotland (St Andrews ) - straight from S5. I was at the "old" end of the year so was 17.5 when I started. So if I'd done S6, I'd have been 18.5.

Almost none of the English students jumped straight to 2nd Year, but the lecturers only nominally covered the difference between Higher and A Level, really rushing through it. It meant that 1st Year was tough - but I coped.

I can remember thinking the opposite of the OP's impression, based on my experience of my fellow English students: I used to wonder what they did with the two years of an A level course and only 3 (maybe 4) subjects, as with only 6 months study (allowing for exams/study leave/holidays) compared to 18 months, and a broader range of subjects, we managed to achieve 2/3 of the level of the A Level students.

Ds is currently doing his Highers (sat his Prelims before Christmas) and I can assure you he had/has homework and is encouraged to revise on a daily basis (by his teachers, not by us! ). And the fact that he is doing 5 Highers (the norm in Scotland - although my school c40 years ago allowed some of us to do 6) means he is doing a broader range than he would be doing in England.

Next year he is planning on doing 2 Advanced Highers and a crash Higher as well as voluntary work (possibly helping with coaching at the School of Rugby).

He is at the "younger" end of the year (technically in the middle but because of deferrals, on average he is one of the younger ones), so even after doing S6, he will not quite have turned 18 when he starts at Uni.

His school is one that allowed 8 Nat 5s - but those that don't allow so many tend to have covered a wider range of subjects to a higher level to the end of S3, theoretically allowing them to make a more informed choice in S4 and/or pick up other subjects as Crash Highers in S6.

He could have done all 3 Sciences for Nat 5 but chose not to (might do Biology as his Crash Higher in S6). Nevertheless, he is doing a broad based range of Highers: English, Geography, Maths, Physics and Chemistry.

Most years his school (a highly mixed demographic, inner city state school in Glasgow, with many languages spoken) has one or more former pupils going to medical or vet school. This is despite extra tutoring not being the norm. There are also regular Oxbridge admissions (although fewer than there used to be, as people are choosing to stay in Scotland due to the need to pay fees in England).

So the Scottish system can't be all bad.

Dd's school only allow them 6 Nat5's, which means 4 choices, but I did 9 GCSE'S with only 5 choices, so not that different there.
She wants to do 5 highers, then two advanced, she'll be 18 when she goes to Uni and her aim (might be too high, but we'll see), is St Andrews.
She certainly does have lots of homework and is spending most of her Christmas break revising for prelims in January.

There is however one major disadvantage of the Scottish system of applying to Uni in S6, with your Higher results under your belt (especially for subjects, other than medicine and similar, where Advanced Highers are not required): the dreaded S6 disease "unconditionalitis"

Thanks for the useful posts.
There are clearly important variations between different state schools. At DD's school there is no ability setting at all, in any subject or at any age. It appears to be an ideological decision. I hope that we will get round that to some degree when she moves into national 5 and higher classes. Also, only being allowed to do a max of 6 national 5s in S4 appears to be an issue.
Thanks for those who recommended that I send her to private school - will bear that in mind when I miraculously become rich. I gather that the private school up the road does 8 highers rather than 5.
Meanwhile, will continue to give her some home education on top of her school education.

The lack of setting shouldn't be an issue. There's none in the early years of the high school which my DC attend and the teachers are able to provide extension work for the more able as well as assist those that are struggling. Once your DD moves into the years where they are preparing for exams she will be in a class appropriate to the level she is on, i.e. Some pupils will still be working at nat 4 level in S4 others at nat 5.

The private school will not be offering 8 highers, 8 nat 5s yes but not 8 higher.

As mentioned many times your daughter will be getting a much broader education in their later years in the Scottish system than she would in England.

There are a lot of good points about the Scottish system - admittedly it's going through some difficulties at the moment but on the whole I'm happy with the education that my DC are currently getting at their high school.

For the 'good' Scottish Universities, the magic key seems to be gaining 5 A grades at the end of 5th year. Taking 5 Highers give you a backup in case one subject falls to a B grade. More than 5 isn't necessary.

• I mean 4 A grades

Never heard of any school (Private or State) offering 8 Highers in a single sitting. 6 is pretty much the maximum - and nowadays is not so common (those that do 6 tend to do an extra non-timetabled one, either with the support of the school or as home study not like in my day )

It might offer 8 over two years - but Unis are more interested in seeing what you can do in a single diet of exams - hence why the 5 in a single sitting are so important.

Ds has one feints in his class who say his Higher Maths when he was in S4 and is doing 5 Highers this year, so will finish S5 with 6 Highers under his belt (I think he is just doing "fun" extension Maths this year and will rejoin the class next year to do Advanced Higher with his friends)

In defence of the 6 Nat 5s (and I should clarify that I'm happy that ds was able to do 8 - but he did have to choose midway through S2 which is maybe a but early), schools that take that approach continue to study 8-10 subjects to the end of S3 - and the pupils get credit for the levels that they achieve at that point - and are then in a position to choose 6 subjects that they really like for their Nat 5s. Ds would have been delighted to drop French

You should see the SQA certificates that they get now: in addition to the Nat 5 results, there are also supporting sheets detailing the levels that they gad achieved in other subjects. So in fact, ds got his 8 Nat 5s in the exams he sat and a Nat 4 in RME (Religious and Moral Education) as he had done sufficiently well in the NABs that they did in the core RME class. Plus various other "levels" in other subjects. If he hadn't been doing Nat 5 PE as a subject, he'd probably also have got a Nat 4 from his "core" PE periods.

"Ds has one friend in his class who sat his Higher Maths in S4...." bloody autocorrect combined with fat fingers

Yeah Dd got credits for various other subjects.

I know one one school where they don't do Nat5's all pupils do a 2 year higher and get the credits for Nat5's instead. My friend is still not convinced about it all.

To be fair if the choice is between 6 nat 5s and a 2 year higher then the two year higher may be an OK choice. Though v tough on kids if their first experience of national exams is in their higher year.

I asked about the 2yr Higher V Nat 5s at a meeting about CfE several years ago and was told that it's not possible to 'pick up' a Nat 5 on the way to the Higher unless you sit the formal exam in May. It's only a Nat 4 that can be credited, which would be unfortunate if the child failed the Higher.

Dd got Nat5's credits from her 2 year higher in Mod studies. It's not a Nat5's qualification like her others just a credit that she has done the work.

I think it's like the NABs from Highers, pretty useless on their own and not a compensation if the Higher isn't passed. I would prefer my child to sit the Nat 5 exam so they can at least fall back on that if they need to. I work in a school, and from what I can see, the Nat 4 is very, very basic as employers will soon find out if they use it as an entry qualification. It's very difficult to fail a Nat 4 as the teachers can heavily coach their students to pass it.

My DSs didn't get a lot of homework in 1-3rd year, however they did/are doing 7 Nat5s in 1 year and it is a lot and is pretty intense and there is a fair amount of homework as well. With also doing DofE and hobbies, doing any extra Nat5s by self study would be hard going.

In theory, the principle of CfE was that obvious Higher candidates would go straight to Highers and not be sidetracked by Nat 5s. In practice, most schools decided it was too dangerous, for lots of different reasons, for candidates' first "real" exams to be, what was in effect, their University Entrance exams , with no results or exam experience e under their belt.

I think Hermitage in Helensburgh was one of them.

I believe that most of those schools have backtracked from that approach and now present pupils - even those destined definitely for Highers - for Nat 5s in S4.

So, if something goes wrong on the day (brain freeze, illness, broken arm....), at least they have the evidence of their Nat 5s.

Prettybird, that's Dds's school, they do 6 nat5's, I'm ok with it, but then this is my only experience with the system, I went through the English system, Dd is my only child.
Dd is doing well, stressed, but working hard, she's missed a lot of school so will be getting a tutor but her predictions are good considering and she's aiming high with the full support of her teachers.
We have no choice of school here, it's the only one unless you can go private or are Catholic (and I wouldn't put in a placing request for anywhere in Dumbarton anyway!)
There's no reason Dd cant/won't get 5 highers and her choices are all in her Nat5 subjects.

The other thing to remember is that Nat 5 maths also includes arithmetic which was a separate subject back in my day. So my DSs choice of 7 is no narrower than the 8 I took. DS2 has managed to choose 7 academic subjects (no art, or or music etc) and is finding it hard going. But that may just be him.