Scottish Highers and Advanced Highers?

[madnessdescending]

We've recently moved to Scotland from England and I'm struggling a bit with understanding the Scottish secondary system.
My older DD has been educated in England, doing 10 GCSEs and then 3 A'levels, which allowed a wide range of subjects, and I think she is coming out if it quite well educated.
My younger DD is in S1 in Scotland. I've been told that she will be allowed to do either 6 or 7 subjects to S4 level, and then will have to reduce that to a maximum of 5 for Highers. Then there is only one year in 6th form, with a small number of either Advanced Highers, and/or further Highers. Then will need to leave school at that stage (a year earlier than in England), to go to Uni.
So as I understand it, she will be dropping to only 6 or 7 subjects very early, and then in the 5th year will be studying a maximum of 5 subjects, at an age when her sister was studying and taking exams in 10 subjects. This presumably means that she will have to make a decision between arts, sciences or humanities very early. I don't see how she will be able to combine these, as is possible in England, or to fit in any "extras", such as music Higher.
I feel pretty sad for her, and have no idea how she will choose to specialise so early. And then of course start her university course a year early too. She is an all rounder, and has no idea which subjects she will decide to drop at such an early stage. How can this result in a good all round education?
Any insights very welcome. At the moment I'm considering teaching her some subjects at home, so that she will have a reasonably wide education despite only being able to study 5 at school.
There is also absolutely no ability setting at her school, and she is finding the work very easy, and is getting almost no homework.

May have to be GCSEs by correspondence course. Or just learning the subjects at home and not taking an exam at all. There are lots of great ways of doing that on the Web.

You need to stop comparing the systems as they are not easily comparable.

In S4 (so a year earlier than England) they sit 6-8 N5s which are GCSE equivalents. They can then go on to do these subjects at Higher, or new ones. For many subjects, schools offer them as so called "crash" Higher. They are also 1 year courses. 5 Higher is enough for most courses (all at A) and no Scottish University is going to turn away a 5A Higher candidate. AH are also a year and are highly rated by universities (including for DS who got an Oxford interview, for which we await results). They are more highly rated as they involve proper research and are not entirely taught and can't as easily be crammed for. Only universities where candidates have not met the 5A Higher, or English ones (or odd anomalies) make offers based on AH, they are a bonus and can help if Highers haven't gone as well.

Not all schools can offer AH in all / any subjects so this is taken into account.

For example, my school cannot offer AH Maths, Geography or some other subjects.

AH are often required for entry to English universities however.

There are no sixth form colleges.
I dont know where your daughter goes to school. My son did six highers but studied one at home and took this exam at school. Likewise he took an advanced higher philosophy and taught himself, again taking the exam at school.
You mention maths. I think that this is a weak point and that if you want to do maths at Oxford Cambridge or Warwick then you should take advice before you start your exams.
You should think of 4th year exams as GCSEs and highers as AS levels. You CAN do a scratch higher in sixth form. My much younger son is in S1 and is thinking of a sixth higher in music already.
A lot depends on the school.

Just found the poss of studying philosophy, history and English highers online. Hopefully this kind of thing will continue to be available. In any event, I've started to teach her a language at home. Gives her something to do in the long homework free evenings, and she's v keen to do a language exchange.

My son did French for his sixth higher. He had a tutor at home for the oral bits.

hamlets OP has already said the school doesn't allow 8 N5s - 6 or 7 at most. Which is pretty restrictive tbh. No chance of doing all three sciences, or two languages for instance.

England asks students to specialise very early compared with the rest of the world. Scotland is even worse imo.

Hamlet - with your DS applying to Oxford, do they decide based on his results at higher (would he have the results for these when he applies to Oxford?), or do they make a conditional offer based on advanced higher predictions?
If the school does not offer advanced higher maths (surprised to hear that, especially as higher in maths has been assessed, for ucas purposes,as being somewhere between gcse and AS), how can a child apply to do maths at uni? In English schools, if you want to do maths at a decent uni, you are told to do not only A'level maths, but also Further maths and physics. Seems bizarre that your school wouldn't offer such a core subject at advanced higher.

NB the school does well in the Scottish exam league tables. I'm guessing that that's because (according to the local grapevine) 80% of the pupils get private tutors (it's a middle class area). Presumably because due to no ability setting the less able struggle in class and the more able are not stretched. The school then take the credit for the decent exam results, and says that they prove that no ability setting works. Interesting that on this thread people are saying that their children are studying subjects at home and with tutors.

I am answering because my son did maths at Oxford.
No, he applied with his higher results but got a conditional offer based on advanced highers.
He did maths, physics, higher maths and philosophy with a logic option, from scratch.
He was interviewed and did the Oxford maths test. As far as I know, that holds a lot of wight and people applying would have to be above a level or advanced higher level.
He had tuition for this from a university lecturer here who had been to Cambridge.
He was 18 on the day he left to go to Oxford.
The main problem in Scotland tends to be the mindset, few people will apply to Oxbridge and teachers at the schools are not generally geared up for it.

The main problem in Scotland tends to be the mindset

Nothing to do with the fees then?!

What does that even mean?
English students pay fees and certainly Oxford colleges have funding to help less well off students.

All my school qualifications are in business 😳. I left school with a place on the nursery nurse course.

My dd wants to do teaching but if she doesn't get in, her next choice is politics then a PGCE.

Ds has no clue but so far seems to be showing a flare in craft & design.

My main thing is that they get maths and English behind them as most jobs or courses I look at require those still.

I meant it's more likely to be the fees that Scottish students have to pay to go to Oxbridge or any other rUK university that puts them off rather than their mindset.

Glasgow = free. Oxford = an extra year at school plus £30k. No brainer really.

The Scottish degrees are 4 years rather than 3, so that's a cost to take into account (living costs for the extra year).
I'd like my DCs to have the option of uni on the continent, but that's not going to happen now!

Groove, my DD wants to do history, and I'm pushing the importance of maths and English on her too!
I'm going to look at getting her a tutor after Christmas, what she lacks isn't ability at all, but self confidence.

Yes. DS got an interview based on Highers, but also on an exam and essays sent in. If he gets an offer, they will require 2-3 AHs or further Highers. They are better at taking individual circumstances into account. A friend's DD got a higher offer from Durham than DS will get (if he gets one) from Oxford.

Also, for some Uni subjects, you can start at different levels, depending on your previous academics. So, for example, if you only have a Higher Maths, you do a different module to start with to those with Further Maths.

And, not all education has to be exams.

OP your confusion is coming from your misinterpretation of comparing highers/5th year to GCSEs/year 11.

National 5s sat in 4th year are the Scottish equivalent of GCSEs. My DC is doing 8. A mixture of all subject groups.

In 5th year Scottish pupils have a broader choice than their English counterparts. Most do 5 highers. 3 a levels is very restrictive in comparison.

You have been misinformed about having to choose between arts and science. In fact they are encouraged to do both. English is the only compulsory subject. Lots don't do maths. I knew people who did 2 MFLs and 2 sciences for example.

You're not comparing like for like though - it's impossible to draw direct comparisons.

S4 in Scotland is not the same as the old 4th year in an English secondary - S4 children in Scotland will be aged 16 and a bit to 15 and a bit and sitting their National 5s. Under the English system, it's the old 5th years who sit GCSEs. As the OP says, her child was old for her year in England, young for her year in Scotland due to the completely different cut off dates.

For S5 in Scotland - when most children will be 17 or coming up for 17 - most children do 5 Highers, fewer for the less academic. It's pretty standard for everyone to do English and Maths and three other subjects. This means post 16, children are studying 5 subjects over one year towards exams rather than the A-level system where they study 3 subjects over 2 years. The Scottish system is therefore broader for longer. Universities take these Higher passes into account when offering places. It also means that you already have your passes in the bag when you are applying to UCAS in your final year at school and aren't wasting your time applying for courses on the hope of good passes the following summer.

In the past some children did leave after S5 and go into Uni when they were 17 but this is now uncommon. There are a range of different options for S6. If you are applying to Oxbridge or for medicine, you may be asked for Advanced Higher passes in some subjects. You may choose to go back and pick up a subject you dropped at 16 and take an additional Higher. You can "crash" a Higher which you didn't even study for Nat 5 - I did this with Economics in my 6th year. You can retake a higher you did in 5th year to try to improve your grade. Or you can do a combination of everything. Much more flexibility.

Can't really comment on how much homework schools give compared to England as my kids have only been educated in Scotland, but their school gets some of the best state school higher passes in Scotland so must be doing something right.

I'd assume those with good Advance Highers can also go into second year, as those are equivalent to A levels.

True - the names of the exams have changed since my day, they were once CSYS (Certificate of 6th Year Studies). I had two A passes in modern languages, and as I was intending studying that course at Uni, had the option of going straight into 2nd year.

I teach at a Scottish university. Both A levels and Advanced Highers with very good grades will give second year entry. You need three A levels or two Adanced highers plus highers in other subjects. We see very few students coming directly from Scottish fifth year now, it used to be more common. We see lots of Scottish applicants who have applied to English universities, including Oxbridge, with conditional offers on their AHs.
Several of my dd's classmates went to English RG unis as well as to European and US universities on the basis of their AHs.
There is no systemic difference between students with English or Scottish qualifications on our programmes. There are places outside the uk which prepare their students much better in maths then we do in the uk. English Alevel maths used to be very variable but seems a little better now.

My DD in S1 is 11 still. We can't quite work out why one of her friends in her class is 13! I'm glad that she scraped in to this year group, or she would have finished primary school in England, and had to go back into primary for another final primary year in Scotland. And as it is she seems to find the work easy.

I think (counting up from p1) that kids in S1 have their 12th birthday between the March of their last year in primary and the February of S1.

However, it is possible to defer entry back in p1 for Jan & Feb kids who don't seem ready or even Nov/Dec kids if a medical or social reason so your dd's friend must have been deferred.

She'll have a 13 year old in her class as the Scottish system is more flexible than the English when it comes to starting. Many people choose to defer a Jan/Feb (or even Oct/Nov/Dec) born children so that they start school after their 5th birthday. You had this option for your DC but have elected to send her into S1 so she is one of the youngest.

I agree with other posters you can't compare the higher year with the English GCSE year. It is more equivalent to lower 6th so offers a broader education. 5 highers is quite a heavy workload.

I agree with you that 6 subjects at nat4 level is restrictive essentially you are largely choosing what will he your highers earlier than you used to but as previous posters say you can 'crash' a higher in one year. The dropping to 6 subjects in S4 is a decision made by individual schools or local authorities. Largely driven by number of teaching hours it takes for each subjects. Schools that offer more than 6 do so by teaching over 2 years rather than 1 or by 'stealing' the teaching time after Easter in S3.

The Scottish Education system accounts for the difference between higher and A level by having a 4 year degree rather than 3.

Why are you moving to Scotland if you have such distain for the education system?
FWIW, the school I teach in regularly has students accepted to Oxbridge, does set according to ability (as does every other secondary school I know of) and sets plenty of homework. They also sit 8 Nationals in S4. In addition, a teacher in Scotland has to be qualified in their subject, which is more than many schools in England.
There are plenty of private schools in Scotland that offer GCSEs and A levels if you're that insistent that nothing else will do.

I'm glad that she scraped in to this year group, or she would have finished primary school in England, and had to go back into primary for another final primary year in Scotland.

But again, you are comparing apples and oranges. Because of the different intake, and the fact that Scottish children are aged 11.5 to 12.5 when they start Secondary rather than 11 years and 1 day to 12 in England, there is a 6 month mis-match. Had your daughter gone into P7 rather than S1 she would be one of the oldest children rather than one of the youngest ones. Many people choose to defer younger children as they believe being older has great advantages. The 13 year old in your daughter's year will have been deferred for various reasons, and have started school at 5 and a bit.

If your daughter is "finding the work easy" then that is an issue with the school, not the education system as a whole. My eldest is in S2 and last year up until Christmas he was in mixed ability for everything. After Christmas they were set for maths. Then at the start of S2 set for English. After Christmas this year, they'll be set for Maths. When he chooses his options at the end of S2, they group similar abilities together. She has only been in High School since August, in large schools like ours there are 8 x 30 student classes, it takes a while for staff to get to know all the kids and their abilities.