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Would you train to be a teacher?

177 replies

Iwantacareerchange · 10/11/2016 20:55

I'm currently working as a paediatric nurse (27yrs) but the NHS is now in such dire straights with serious lack of staff both nurses and doctors and equipment/medication that I and most of my colleagues now genuinely fear a child on our ward will die and we will loose our registration. Also the NHS is being broken down and privatised, lots of areas have been taken over by profit making companies this depresses me money is coming before the health needs of our children. I took a career break when my children were little and have a good class degree in area that apparently there is a serious significant teacher shortage and "Get into teaching" are always emailing me. Today I spoke to them and have arranged various visits to schools etc to see what I think.
So the 64 million $ question would you retrain as a secondary school teacher?

OP posts:
Iwantacareerchange · 13/11/2016 08:58

Spotty I have to say no ones mentions in either the endless emails I get sent, websites I rad or when I talk to them "long holidays" or that it's "easy". In fact the recruitment process is quite onerous rather complicated as there seem to be a variety of options, a selection of organisations involved in and offering teacher training and lots of acronyms (which I hate), I suspect that alone puts off many.
Me I think you're right people who are unhappy tend to write more, I would do the same if someone was thinking or retraining as a nurse. I talked to a tracher the other day who has been teaching for 30 years she made virtually identical comments to those made on here but still said she loved the job and would recommend it. It's the same for me I would say to anyone don't do it but other colleagues would have a different point of view and in fact frequently do but they're less vociferous than I am.

OP posts:
Smellslikeoranges · 13/11/2016 09:06

Am a teacher in Australia. Top independent school. Trained in the uk in sink schools and hated it. It is best or the worst job in the world - depending on the kids. If you are able to train in the UK, which has actually amazing teacher training, can stomach it for a couple of years, and then move abroad, I'd recommend going for it whole heartedly. If you are staying in the uk and probably working down the road, it's not something that I'd go for. Best to see what you think after your days.

mrz · 13/11/2016 09:06

All the schools listed in my area who were offering observation days for my subject have requested a payment (unless you're on benefits)

You don't want observation days you need to spend time actually working with the teacher in class as a volunteer if you really want to find out if it's the right choice for you.

Iwantacareerchange · 13/11/2016 09:15

Working for a charity does appeal to me and I have investigated this in the past and will do this again. Our location (rural) limits options slightly, the one I really want to work for is sadly 65 miles away.
I could wait till DC's finish uni then wages will be less important but DC2 starts a 5 year course in Sept 2017 although I've told him that he's going to have to get a job Smile. This thread is useful it has helped me think things through, if I talk to colleagues they try and persuade me to stay, friends who are nurses and who've left the profession encourage me to leave telling how much happier they now are but I don't fancy anything they're doing or retraining to do. My DH thinks the shift patterns we work are ridiculous and bad for our health especially nights he's right there's lots of research staying nights are very bad long term for health. To make matters worse we do nights and days in the same week often coming off a day shift and doing a night the next day and back on a day shift the following day. He thinks I should become a practive nurse but it's just not me!
Anyway off to bed now.

OP posts:
TheEmojiFormerlyKnownAsPrince · 13/11/2016 09:18

I'm 53. I'm 😵😵at people my age on a PGCE!

Apart from the fact that no one will employ them as they are too expensive, teaching is a very physically demanding and tiring job. I'm a teacher, I'm too exhausted to do anything after school. Even nipping to the corner shop is
an ordeal when you've been on your feet all day☹️️

SarfEast1cated · 13/11/2016 09:19

I am currently doing my PGCE primary and love it. It's engaging, absorbing, fun and hard work, but then my previous job was hard work too, but bored me rigid. School feels like where I belong and I wish I hadn't spent so much time in my old job! Try and get some experience in schools, (I was a reading partner for a junior school for a long time) and see what you think. Lots of senior schools are looking for mentors for their pupils, so you could try that maybe? Or spend some time in after school homework schemes. I found that without at least a few years school experience under your belt, you won't get a paid scheme, you'll probably need to spend the money on a PGCE, but I got my fees paid by a bursary, so it's been really good.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do...

mrz · 13/11/2016 09:20

"Apart from the fact that no one will employ them as they are too expensive" they aren't any more expensive tan a 22 year old NQT

BeingATwatItsABingThing · 13/11/2016 09:20

An NQT is an NQT. They aren't paid differently because of age. Only when you have worked up through the pay grade do you become more expensive.

MaybeDoctor · 13/11/2016 09:22

I'm an ex-teacher (primary SLT) and my two-penneth is as follows:

  • your working conditions sound horrible and you probably are in a tougher role at present. But you won't find teaching much easier, it will simply be a case of fire to frying pan.

-I would give serious consideration to the effect that your age may have on your longevity within the role - you may go through the trouble of re-training, a very tough NQT year and an even tougher second year, only to find your age catching up with you...

  • The age profile of teaching is getting younger and fewer teachers are reaching retirement. You may find that the head, senior leadership team and other senior teachers are at least a decade younger than you. Your age may also, unfortunately, count against you in recruitment processes.
  • Processes such as spending a day 'observing' within school tend to give a better insight into being a teaching assistant rather than a teacher. What teachers were saying to me about the job was actually, in retrospect, a much more accurate guide. I even spent two terms as a TA before doing my PGCE and, while useful, it didn't really bear much relation to the job itself. Fundamentally, I was mostly at the back of the class, leaving at 3.15 and only ever taking responsibility for small groups of children at a time.
  • When you do go in to spend time in schools I suggest that you, quite literally, shadow the teacher(s) you have been assigned to follow. My top tip would be to always sit at the front rather than the back of the classroom. Yes, you will have 30 pairs of eyes on you and will feel deeply uncomfortable, but that will give you a much better idea of what he/she is doing in terms of behaviour management. If he/she goes out on playground duty, follow them. If they have to supervise in the dining hall, follow them. If they have a free period, ask exactly what work they have to accomplish within that time. Don't sit down/relax unless they are. Don't leave the building after school, stay and see what they are doing. You will probably annoy them deeply, but that will at least give you a reasonable idea of what the job involves.

Hope that helps.

rollonthesummer · 13/11/2016 09:30

How much do you have to pay the school to go in for a day's observation?! Is this a secondary state school?

You seem to be have your choices down to teaching on nursing-both of which are notoriously pretty shite. I'd look further afield, I think.

I've done 19 years of teaching and whilst I loved it to begin with, I seriously hate what the job has become. Nobody that I trained with is still in the classroom now and people are dropping like flies-anyone over 50 has either taken stupidly early retirement, is off with ill-health or were pushed out via capability proceedings.

I want to say, 'do it' because we are desperate for teachers. Y3 at my daughter's school has been taught by a TA since mid September as the teacher went off with stress after two weeks and they cannot find anyone to recruit (and claim they don't have the funds to do so anyway). I wonder if you will still be in teaching after 2 years though. The PGCE year was hard, the nqt year harder and to be honest, the year after was even harder as the responsibility and expectations went through the roof and non-contact time disappeared.

NickMyLipple · 13/11/2016 09:32

What about a practice development lead role within nursing, so teaching nurses? Usually they're Monday- Friday hours.

Or have you considered a practice teacher role within nursing?

Student Nurse development?

Or what about a university lecturer. I don't think it's even that hard to get into if you're interested in that.

Enidblyton1 · 13/11/2016 09:38

I'm giving another vote for looking at charity roles.
My friend works for a charity which cares for people with disabilities. They employ ex-nurses as area supervisors (not sure of the exact title!). They use their experience to visit the care homes and check they are meeting clinical requirements. This may sound boring to you after acute nursing, BUT, the money is quite good and hours/annual leave very flexible.
If I was in my 50s with years of nursing experience I would move to a 'steady' nursing advisory role like this (in the same way that many teachers take early retirement/move to advisory roles at this age).
I guess you have to balance passion for an acute role with quality of life. Which is more important to you at the moment?
Good luck with your decision!

rollonthesummer · 13/11/2016 09:39

An interesting thread here link

GingerAndTheBiscuits · 13/11/2016 09:52

Would there not be massive impact on your pension if you left the NHS now?

TreehouseTales · 13/11/2016 09:55

There are very few older teachers left at ny daughters school. Within 4 years it went from a good mix of ages and experience to a mix that's mainly teachers in their first few years and senior management in their 30s with odd token older person. I dont think this is unusual....

Beckie222 · 13/11/2016 09:58

It's hard to get a balanced view on here. The majority who offer advice hate their jobs and are biased in their opinion.

As for the poster who suggested 13 hour days, 7 days per week??? Really you do that 52 weeks a year, I think not.

Make the most of your observation days and make an informed decision on the best way ahead for you.

LyndaLaHughes · 13/11/2016 10:37

I disagree that it is hard to get a balanced view. The fact is the statistics don't lie and the reason why the view seems to not be balanced is because the teachers who are still happy and enjoy their job are i'm sad to say in the minority. Very few teachers will speak positively about the job because that is the reality. Those who still enjoy the job will and do speak out but there are just not many of them. That is a sad fact but it is the truth. I work with a lot of schools and speak to a lot of teachers across the country through networking groups and staff morale is horrific. I'm lucky enough to work in a lovely school with a supportive head. I'm afraid supportive heads are in the minority. Even so at my school every single teacher is stressed, demoralised, exhausted and unhappy. My Ht does everything in her power to prevent this but she can't stop the ridiculous changes, the relentless accountability and the horrible demands. I'm seen the toll it is taking on her health wise as well. Please do not take an observation day as an indication of the job. It is not. You can't observe what goes on outside the classroom and at home, you can't observe the impact on your self confidence and stress levels. You can't observe all the target setting and ridiculous expectations. I do feel like you do have your head screwed on about this but I am just urging you to ignore these warnings at your peril. So many people have gone into teaching thinking "I'll be alright, it will be different for me, I can cope etc" only to get a horrible rude awakening. That includes many who leave horrible stressful jobs thinking it can't be any worse only to find it is. Look at the statistics for teachers with mental health or substance abuse issues, look at the statistics for how many die very soon after retirement. The whole picture is grim. We aren't scaremongering when we warn people off- we are saving them the inevitable heartbreak and destruction that follows. As someone who always wanted to be a teacher it really hurts me to say these things but it isn't the job it should be. It kills me that children are being affected by all of this now. We just want give left alone to teach - that part was always so rewarding and fun. It isn't anymore and many are nearly broken because of it. If parents would only realise the realities and the impact on their children and started to fight back we might stop this nightmare. Unfortunately we have a society where teachers are not respected or trusted and parents are quick to criticise. I do think the tide is turning there though as I've been really heartened by some of the wonderful supportive comments on here about teachers, which mean so much when in the day to day parents can be so unsupportive and critical but parents really need to rise up and fight now. Our children are too precious to allow this nonsense to continue.
One other point is you are looking at secondary and have a main subject. Apologies if this has been mentioned already but I haven't seen it. There is such a huge teacher shortage that many secondary teachers are being asked to teach subjects outside of their specialisms. They are being forced to teach and be held accountable for the results in subjects they aren't qualified to teach. Not to mention losing free periods to cover because of short staffing.
Good luck whatever you decide to do OP. Nursing sounds horrific at the moment and it breaks my heart to see the wonderful NHS being destroyed in this way and good people being forced out of a profession they love. Sadly it's all too familiar. I can only hope that people wake up soon and realise how this government is destroying the public sector.

HandbagCrab · 13/11/2016 10:52

I cannot believe schools are charging prospective pgce students for 'observation days'.

Op you could apply to supply agencies as an unqualified teacher and get paid to be shoved in at the deep end as a supply ta/ cover supervisor/ teacher. It wouldn't be the whole picture but if you believe your skills lie in your commanding nature, sense of humour and skill in explanation then supply would utilise those skills.

Me2017 · 13/11/2016 10:56

The pension point above is a good one - check that. You can really shoot your financial security in retirement to pieces if you retire early. It is why companies love to sack workers who are 5 years off retirement age as it saves them a fortune in pension payments later.

Secondly fostering as I mention above might be a good compromise.

I agree nights wear people out. They are unnatural and I don't think very good for health so practice nurse until you reach retirement age and child's 5 year university course is over might be a good idea and then MSF or teaching English abroad or something.

I hope this does not incur the wrath of teachers on the thread but today's Sunday Times has this:

"The headmistress of Britain’s strictest school has defended her decision to employ more unqualified teachers than any other state school.

A third of the staff at Michaela Community School in Brent, northwest London, are learning “on the job”.

Katharine Birbalsingh accused some teacher training colleges of indoctrinating students with “progressive liberal values” that failed children in the classroom.

“Our teaching and behaviour methods are so different to what they teach in teacher training institutions that in many ways it is far easier to hire unqualified teachers,” she said. “We don’t have to reteach them and they don’t have to unlearn bad habits. They learn very quickly and within weeks — even days — you cannot tell the difference between our unqualified teachers and our experienced ones.”

Staff at Michaela have written Battle Hymn of the Tiger Teachers, a book to be published this month that calls on schools to get tough with pupils and parents to raise standards and end a culture of “excuses, laziness and bad behaviour”.

The title is a nod to Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother by the American lawyer Amy Chua in which she expounded the benefits of a strict upbringing for children.

Pupils at Michaela must follow strict rules and can be given detentions for misdemeanours such as slouching in their chair or making the spaces between words in their homework too wide. More serious offences, such as lying, earn a day in isolation. They are expected to write thank you notes to their “tiger teachers” and are required to attend a “boot camp” before enrolling.

Despite some clashes with parents, the school, which opened in 2014, has a waiting list and pupils are making double the average progress in maths and English.

“I think this is likely to be the strictest school [in Britain] . . . Kids here are grateful for being reprimanded because they know it makes them a better person,” Birbalsingh tells The Sunday Times Magazine today.

“We are more than just a school. We are also about helping to question the prevailing orthodoxies of our British education system.”

Birbalsingh’s previous efforts to open a free school faced opposition from campaigners and unions. In the book, she writes: “In the early days the threats and abuse were so bad that I was scared to walk down the street.”

Staff who have contributed to the book include Sarah Clear, whose mother is a head teacher.

“Unqualified teachers here are better teachers after two terms than qualified teachers were after two years,” she said. “The advantage of being unqualified is I have . . . been able to learn in a school unencumbered by the burden of bad ideas.”

But Kevin Courtney, general secretary of the National Union of Teachers, said a survey by YouGov had found 80% of parents did not want their children to attend schools that did not require teachers to be trained. “We believe children deserve to be taught by qualified teachers and we know that parents think the same,” he said."

mrz · 13/11/2016 11:11

"It's hard to get a balanced view on here. The majority who offer advice hate their jobs and are biased in their opinion."

Untrue! I love my job which is why I don't think anyone should blindly enter the profession without knowing the realities. The DfE advertisements are a joke and I've seen too many students who've picked teaching for the wrong reasons flounder and fail. Teaching is something you must really want to do it shouldn't be something you do because you can't think of another job.

I'd say it's important to visit more than one school if you want a balanced view.

noblegiraffe · 13/11/2016 11:15

The Michaela school is very likely not to need teachers to be trained in the same way as any other school because it would be very easy to teach there. They have a very prescriptive curriculum (as in lesson plans down to fine details) and the kids do exactly what they are told.

mrz · 13/11/2016 13:11

Perhaps something to consider http://www.schoolcuts.org.uk/#/

Iwantacareerchange · 13/11/2016 13:28

In answer to the points raised above.
Ok a bit more background just to make my situation clearer. I sat in a secondary school for two terms basically observing what was going on a few years ago (I'm not able expand further due to confidentialit). I embarked on my degree because I was seriously thinking of getting out of nursing, which wasn't as hideous as it is now, so before doing my degree I worked for year as a volunteer listening to primary school children read and I did three weeks as an unpaid classroom assistant in various classrooms at the primary school near to where I used to live. I came away knowing being a primary teacher wasn't for me. My intention when I completed to degree had been to teach at secondary level but no bursaries were then available, also I was in the process of moving house/to another part of the country and I was keen to undertake a part time MSc in a very specialised area related to my degree that just happened to be available near to my new home. But as no funding is available for MScs I had to carry on nursing to fund it. Eventually it became impossible to juggle ridiculous hours i.e. nights, requesting certain days off to attend university twice a week, the prohibitive cost of the MSc and a youngish family so I gave it up. I stayed in nursing because it was convenient whilst my DC's were at school but retraining to be a teacher has always been on my radar.
TheEmoji I don't believe teaching is more physically exhausting than nursing, I leave the house at 06 15/18 15 and return at 20 30/08 30 I average 15 000 steps a day often 17-18 000 we rarely get any breaks, I often finish and realise Ive eaten and drunk nothing all day and have not been to the loo, we only have one loo in our dept. and there are 25 staff if you include cleaners physics etc so it's often in use. My bladder capacity was recently measured (not a test I would recommend) and it's found to be abnormally high because I dont go when I should and I've over stretched it. My urine is dark by the end of the day because I'm dehydrated. It takes a day for the body to physically recover from this kind of abuse. We work days and nights in the same week so we are all permantently jet lagged, I've worked Friday long day, last night (Saturday), I've had 1 hours sleep and am now wide awake, I'm back on duty tomorrow at 7 am. My body clock is completely fucked.Whilst at work we lift and carry continuously, the average nurses lift 1 tonne per shift, we push funtiture around, empty bins cart rubbish around, lift patients, push trolleys, nurses have one if the highest incidence of chronic back problems caused by occupational factors. As I've already said there's loads of research about the serious detrimental long term affects on health of working nights including shorter life span and links to dementia, coronary heart disease type 2 diabetes and cancer amongst other things.
I'm not saying a teachers don't work physically hard, this is not a pissing match, but I doubt they work physically harder than nurses do.
With regard to age many of my managers are younger than me I don't see this as a problem.
Pensions are transferable.
I have never seen the ads in TV as I dont have one I will look out for them! Grin
I don't with to be a nurse educator I deplore the way nurses are educated now!
It's hard for those not in nursing to understand. The great thing is that there are so many different areas to work in most people can find simething that works for them. Changing to another area of nursing sounds so obvious to those not in the profession but most of us choose our areas because we like it and it suits our way of thinking/working/how we respond to stress. Lots of my colleagues say they couldn't do paediatrics "it's to sad" and "too stressful" children deteriorate rapidly and when they go down hill they really do go down hill fast but for me I enjoy it, I couldn't work in a nursing home or a GP surgery or a stroke unit i greatly admire those that do, I love the unpredictability of it the constant changes and the buzz. I enjoy forming often brief relationships with parents at stressful times in their lives and supporting them through difficult times. We as paediatric nurses with all are knowledge (which is ever increasing) and technical skill also ever increasing are there for you when the chips are down, we are professional carers we genuinely care about your child and you at often the worst moments in your life we want the best for you. Paediatric nurses reach out a hand to a stranger and say let me support you and care about you and your child when the it's all going wrong, we also celebrate good news with you, and go home at night and think about you and your child. We genuinely grieve with those who are bereaved, worry about those who are critically ill, and care about those struggling against all odds to get better. But my life is changing my children have left home and I have more time flexibility is not so essential. I sense the need for a change, my body is starting to complain, my back is aching, my bladder will soon effortlessly reach my sternum and my kidneys are tired of working with insufficient circulating volume, my body clock is so disrupted I've become like the dormouse in Alice In Wonderland I fall asleep all over the place it's a standing joke with my family, but I don't want to look at leg ulcers all day or move into a quieter less stressful area because for me what I do is nursing. I'm ready for a new challenge and commitment in case you haven't worked this out yet I like both. Back and bladder problems aside I'm exceedingly fit and well my body clock can be reset given a chance, I look 35 not 51, I don't smoke drink or eat crappy food, I've bags of energy, much more than many of my younger colleagues, a cast iron immune system, I thrive on and enjoy hard work I can easily find a cushier number but I'm not ready for that yet. Teaching may not be right for me and having read all that's written here I'm becoming increasingly doubtful but it's still worth seriously considering before I dismiss it completely and get that job looking at old ladies let ulcers all day!
Im sure some will respond by saying that my poor spelling and grammar make me unsuitable to become a teacher, but before you do please remember this is a very emotive area for me, I write what I genuinely feel, it's not a essay to be marked and don't forget I've worked my nuts off all night and had little sleep. Grin

OP posts:
HandbagCrab · 13/11/2016 14:28

Look op if you really want to do a secondary science pgce do it. Teaching is not paediatric nursing with day shifts and toilet breaks but you'll find that out soon enough once you start. There's good stress and bad stress and the bad stress bits of nursing you don't like are there in teaching, it's just they are slightly different.

You will have no autonomy in what or how you teach, everything you do will be scrutinised and measured, you will have inadequate support from stressed colleagues, you will be expected to do 60-70 hour weeks for at least the first couple of years, children don't necessarily want to learn what you have to teach them, ministers and ofsted change their minds on a regular basis and we all jump... You need to have your eyes open.

I'd also say that even someone who looks 35 is in the older age range for teaching these days, over 50s unless slt are a dying breed. There are 4 teachers out of around 100 at my school over 50.

You can teach unqualified anyway, maybe do this for a bit before spending money on observation days and pgce fees. Honestly, why not give yourself a break, get a boring 9-5 community nursing role and use up your energy and passion on things you really want to do in all the extra time you'll have. Teaching will suck you dry and you'll get no thanks or consideration for it.

LyndaLaHughes · 13/11/2016 14:29

To be honest I never understand why people treat comments on a forum in the same way as documents or writing in a more formal context. Correcting someone's spelling and grammar in this context is just petty. We can all make mistakes when typing quickly in an informal situation. It's hardly the same attention you would pay to modelling for a child or in a piece of paperwork (of which I'm sure the OP has plenty of experience.) It's exactly those kind of petty comments that give teachers a bad name and means we are considered patronising or superior. I'm for one am damned if I'm going to proof read every one of my posts to check my spelling and grammar for fear I'm then accused of not being competent to teach.