In praise of comprehensive schools

[FreshHorizons]

It was cheering to see the Sutton Trust announce that 60% of Team GB medalists came from comprehensive schools.

I have finally come off a thread where certain people can't find a good word to say about comprehensive schools. They equate them with mixed ability teaching, poor behaviour and an inability to stretch bright children.

I would like a thread to celebrate the best of comprehensive education.

In my case it allowed my 3 , very different, children to be able to go to the same school without being judged by outsiders. It meant the stability of knowing one school over a long period of time and them knowing our family. It meant that days off and parent evenings didn't clash and that money was saved by handing down uniform. They were able to move up with the bulk from their primary school. They were able to mix with children of different abilities and backgrounds, as you do in adult life. It meant being able to enjoy education for the joy of learning new things, without the stress of an exam that would determine their path in life, aged only 10 or 11yrs.

Those things didn't really matter, although they were helpful.

What really mattered was that they could all blossom at their own rate.
They all got a good education and are now happily established in careers- the careers that they chose.

It wasn't all about the academic side- there were opportunities in sport, music, outdoor activities etc.

It would be nice to have some success stories. Please don't post about crap schools- start another thread for that if you have grievances you want to air.

It is the summer, the sun is out and some happy, optimistic stories would be nice.

I don't think all supporters of grammar think their children will get in, more like their children will have a chance to get in.

And if the admission is fair, and if my child doesn't get in, it's fair game. But the opportunity exist. It allows aspirations.

Admission system is the key.

alwayssurprised - And if the admission is fair, and if my child doesn't get in, it's fair game.

So what are the alternatives like for you?

alwayssurprised I don't think all supporters of grammar think their children will get in, more like their children will have a chance to get in. given the number of Grammar school appeals every year I have to question this claim.

What do the parents you know have to say about Grammar schools when their DC fails to make the cut?

A non selective school in the local area? If enough resources is put in, and the teaching is good, with effective setting, does it has to mean the end of the world? If a comp can work why can't non grammars work? It might even be a confidence booster for late bloomers because they will be the top in their school?

Also can there not be a further maybe smaller entry point to grammars at 13 for another go? Then with GCSE to move for sixth form there might just be enough mobility between school?

they equate them with mixed ability teaching, poor behaviour and an inability to stretch bright children

Unfortunately this was my experience in a comp. I just assumed it was normal but then going to a different 6th form (there wasn't one at my comp- frankly they didn't expect you to do much post 16) then a few uni really opened my eyes to how Porte education was. Crowd control, mainly mediocre teaching (one or two very good ones, but most were not.) the kids who needed extra help didn't get it. The kids who were bright got no stretching at all.
I remember one 'careers' session where I said I wanted to go to uni and was laughed at. Luckily I had supportive parents and was bright, so I did ok, but really it was in spite of it, rather than because of it.

Bullying was rife. Lunch was in five 'shifts' and if you were on the last two there was no food left except congealed chips.

Heartening to see more positive experiences on this thread but not all comps are good.

Mum Unfortunately when the children fail to get into grammar, (sometimes actually even when they do get a place), a lot of parents with the resources turns to private. So actually they still won't be in the local comp.

alwayssurprised How would you make the admissions system fair? How would you stop parents tutoring their children for the 11+ from the age of 6 or 7? How would you ensure there was an exam that tested for ability not tutoring They have tried to do this and consistently failed. If we had a system where there was a variety of schools, all equally valued and where the children who didn't go to Grammars weren't thought of as second class failures, or the non grammar schools in the area weren't seen as sink schools where they dump the dregs of society (90% of the population). Thats not the attitude we have in this country, from parents or society as a whole.

I don't have a solution for a completely fair admission system and I doubt it exists. I do think there should be more elements to the selection process in addition to acing that one wriiten exam. The tests should look for sparks and potential taking into account of background and dedication to education. I would prefer a computer standardized test for first round containing questions to test competence with primary curriculum up to the point of test, possibly combined with interviews and primary school recommendations in the second round.

But then we have to allow the school high degree of autonomy to decides who to take.

*2StripedSocks You may be tired of the house price thing but many aren't- Sutton,the parents with kids stuck in mediocre schools and no chance of ever moving to be in the catchment of one of the best.Many more parents are pissed off with that than the teeny number pissed off with grammars.

Think TM has made a good decision- expansion with no turning the clock back.*

But using house prices as an argument is flawed. Take a look at the House prices in Marlow. Guess what, there is a highly sought after Grammar school in Marlow.

Opening more Grammar schools will not solve the house price issue. Any highly sought after school, be it a comp. or a Grammar, will still be surrounded by premium priced houses simply because they will be oversubscribed. If a school is over subscribed, more often than not, distance is used as a tie breaker. For this very reason people look to buy close to the school.

2StripedSocks I don't think your point supports the need for Grammar schools. However, I do think it supports the need to improve existing schools.

I read somewhere about the idea of feeder primaries. I assume if priorities are given to all state primaries local to the grammar that might work quite well too? Leave the Preps to prep for privates?

I think Harold Wilson said that he wanted Grammar Schools for all. Which was a reflection of how deeply unpopular Secondary Moderns were, notwithstanding the fact that there were some good ones. I think Theresa May has possibly woken up to this - voting Tory does not guarantee your child a grammar place.

Theresa May's problem now, is that she has to find a way to improve those schools which need it, preferably without spending too much money on the plebs, despite her fine words on the steps of No 10. Going back to the glory days of the nineteen fifties fits very much into the current mood of going back to the days of the Empire.

Surprised. That would make sense. Prioritise state primary pupils for all state schools. Pupils in private schools to be bottom of the oversubscribed criteria.

Bertrand. The socio economics for WA14 and 15 is probably the same as most excellent comps I presume. But neither school seems to suffer for the Grammar cohort being creamed off. Just pointing out that there are excellent secondary mods in the same way that there are excellent comps.

This is all well and good for those with good or acceptable comps in their catchment. Many families, like mine are stuck because we don't earn enough to move to these areas and are left with terrible schools, full of kids and teachers with little or no attainment, bullying and gangs.

Maybe the new policy will be along the line of allowing new selective free schools to open in areas with demands. The schools will have high autonomy in selecting children with ability based criteria, but has to have minimum % of FSM above the % in the local area, possibly with these children in a separate queue. Priority to local feeder primaries which will be in some sort of consortium with the selective secondary, maybe with early workshops for talented children built in.

" Many families, like mine are stuck because we don't earn enough to move to these areas and are left with terrible schools, full of kids and teachers with little or no attainment, bullying and gangs."

So all the comprehensives near you are terrible?

And there is affordable housing within catchment of plenty of good schools. I had a quick look and you can rent a 2 bedroomed house in the catchment of an outstanding comprehensive near me for £650pcm or 3 bedrooms for £750 which are both very much at the lower end of the scale for the city. You'd be looking at around £180k to buy 3 bedrooms in catchment. There was a much cheaper house, but it was in a street where I saw racist graffiti on someone's door, so I ruled that out. Of course, the kids in that street also get to go the outstanding school.

Bertrandrussell Yes they are. If you read my post you will see that I have said that the two secondary schools in my home catchment area are under special measures and have problems with poor exam results, behaviour and crime. I know for a fact these would be the only two comp schools we coukd get our children into. I live on the borders of some nice boroughs with very expensive houses, those schools never go more than 1 mile for catchment. My family are stuck because we can't move, we don't receive benefits or have any special needs. We can either tutor our children for grammar or selective in the hope they get in or accept they will go to these dive schools, or lie/cheat. The level of distress this causes me cannot be under estimated.

The2Ateam - This is all well and good for those with good or acceptable comps in their catchment. Many families, like mine are stuck because we don't earn enough to move to these areas and are left with terrible schools, full of kids and teachers with little or no attainment, bullying and gangs

Which is an argument for improving existing schools not opening up new Grammar Schools.

Do you think those schools will improve if a Grammar opens up in the area?

What will happen is those who can afford it will buy houses close to the Grammar, many of whom will come from outside the area. Believe me, that is what is happening now and there is nothing to support the idea that it will be any different if new Grammar schools are opened.

Thanks to this debate one of my tweets on this subject got Re-tweeted by David Aaronovitch, one of my favourite writers!!

Now I know how David Brent felt: "The bad news is 805 of kids are to be told they're failures, the good news is I've been Re-tweeted"

Retires to darkened room

This is how it will work in say Oldham

!) New grammar opens. Oldham Hulme (independent grammar) closes for lack of pupils. Blue Coat and Sadlleworth school (posher schools in Oldham) results go down as lost so many pupils to new grammar.
2) As their results go down more anger from parents whose children didn't get in and claim that no school is suitable for their able children - demand another grammar. so another grammar is built
3)Process continues until virtually all middle class children get into grammars.
4)Other schools get worse and worse but no-on really cares.

I do think that is the fundamental point. People don't really care what happens to the children who don't get into the grammars. They pretend they do (well, most do- some more honorable ones don't even pretend) but they don't.

mum This is a thread started to praise comprehensive schools. Obviously populated by those who are happy with their local comps. I doubt they would be on crowing if they had to send their children to ghetto schools. I too support comps but my kids don't have access to decent ones and therefore I support anything which allows them an option.