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In praise of comprehensive schools

893 replies

FreshHorizons · 23/08/2016 14:51

It was cheering to see the Sutton Trust announce that 60% of Team GB medalists came from comprehensive schools.

I have finally come off a thread where certain people can't find a good word to say about comprehensive schools. They equate them with mixed ability teaching, poor behaviour and an inability to stretch bright children.

I would like a thread to celebrate the best of comprehensive education.

In my case it allowed my 3 , very different, children to be able to go to the same school without being judged by outsiders. It meant the stability of knowing one school over a long period of time and them knowing our family. It meant that days off and parent evenings didn't clash and that money was saved by handing down uniform. They were able to move up with the bulk from their primary school. They were able to mix with children of different abilities and backgrounds, as you do in adult life. It meant being able to enjoy education for the joy of learning new things, without the stress of an exam that would determine their path in life, aged only 10 or 11yrs.

Those things didn't really matter, although they were helpful.

What really mattered was that they could all blossom at their own rate.
They all got a good education and are now happily established in careers- the careers that they chose.

It wasn't all about the academic side- there were opportunities in sport, music, outdoor activities etc.

It would be nice to have some success stories. Please don't post about crap schools- start another thread for that if you have grievances you want to air.

It is the summer, the sun is out and some happy, optimistic stories would be nice. Smile

OP posts:
Bitofacow · 03/09/2016 14:26

Decking should obviously be fucking Wink

HPFA · 03/09/2016 15:09

I am getting 'Sick' and tired of people mentioning 'Social Mobility' , that should have 'fuck' all to do with creating grammar schools.

We're in total agreement here Sandy however the government has apparently chosen this line of argument to promote the idea, so we opponents rae going to try and counter it

The grammar school debate should be about providing a type of school wanted by parents , servicing the needs of 'aspirant' parents and children.

I can only admire (again) your total honesty here.

Bitofacow · 03/09/2016 15:24

'Admire', yeah I can think of some other words.

'Honesty' again I could suggest other words.

HPFA I admire your restraint.

HPFA · 03/09/2016 15:28

If all grammar school supporters were as honest as Sandy us opponents would have an easier time of it. It's the line about how great secondary moderns will be for other people's children that challenges my restraint!! Oh and how children don't fail, they are just assigned to the "most suitable school for them"

sandyholme · 03/09/2016 15:29

Thank you HPFA.

One of the strengths/weaknesses (make your mind up) of High Functioning Autism is not to 'garnish' your opinions or views with sugar coated candy !

Unlike the Government I don't use 'false flag' ideas, in order to promote the cause or support my reasoning !

sandyholme · 03/09/2016 15:53

The truth is the Prime Minister has realized there is a large amount of leverage politically to be gained by trotting out more grammar schools!

For the Conservative party the idea is a non 'loser' either way because if the proposals end up being watered down.

They can be presented as 'we listened to what people wanted and it was decided we a few schools of the type of the Cardiff Sixth Form Centre was the way to go !
www.ccoex.com/

Alternatively if the idea of more grammar schools gets 'binned' it can be presented that the ' Teaching Unions , and a collation of the left' are responsible for destroying your educational aspirations !

I actually think the Conservative Government would prefer the second option because it is 'fertile' ground to attack 'left' from a perspective , that they are 'anti excellence'.

sandyholme · 03/09/2016 16:11

SCRATCH THAT. 'I thought only International students paid at Cardiff Sixth Form College' ,sadly i am wrong !.

sandyholme · 03/09/2016 17:29

Its never a grammar school ,where you get the usual 'pillocks' (PARENTS) turning up with 'stupid' haircuts or purple trainers for the first day back at school !

The parents then go and 'moan' about how the school have 'mistreated' their idiot son by putting him in isolation !

www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/boy-13-banned-from-school-for-his-elaborate-paul-pogba-copycat-haircut-unless-he-shaves-off-hair/ar-AAiqL8L#image=3

minifingerz · 03/09/2016 17:40

"The grammar school debate should be about providing a type of school wanted by parents , servicing the needs of 'aspirant' parents and children."

Yup - well I aspire to have my ds, who wouldn't pass the 11+ because his literacy is weak, to share his maths, music and science lessons with children who are working at the same high level that he is.

And luckily a system which facilitates setting rather than inflexible streaming (which is what the grammar system offers) exists: it's called comprehensive schooling.

minifingerz · 03/09/2016 17:43

"I am not left with much option to vote for when one 'hopeful' Prime Minister wants to sit on the 'floor' of a train ! "

Comments of that level of stupidity are a potent argument against democracy.

FreshHorizons · 03/09/2016 17:57

I think that when even the Head of Ofsted is against returning to selection we are fairly safe.
When we are told that schools are dealing with a huge increase in mental health problems at all ages one report of many it would be madness to put the stress of selection on to them and call 3/4 of them failures at 10/11yrs. The 'successes' then have even more stress once they are expected to do really well.

OP posts:
noblegiraffe · 03/09/2016 18:08

Wilshaw isn't head of Ofsted for much longer, Amanda Spielman is taking over.

sandyholme · 03/09/2016 18:11

Ms Spielman also has extensive direct experience in the world of academy schools. If the government is to continue to press forward its academy programme, it makes sense the incoming Ofsted Chief would have that background. But with the new Secretary of State for Education also saying she was open to other ideas to improve educational standards – including a refusal to rule out the return of Grammar schools – it could be that Ms Spielman will quickly need to demonstrate an ability across a wide range of schools and administrations.

sandyholme · 03/09/2016 18:12

ttps://www.fastrak.co.uk/news/2016/amanda-spielman-ofsted-position-confirmed/

FreshHorizons · 03/09/2016 18:57

Wilshaw's views will still count.
Having looked at the Ark academy I feel reassured that their ethos is completely against selection at 10yrs of age.

OP posts:
FreshHorizons · 03/09/2016 18:59

Not just the one! The academy chain.

OP posts:
FreshHorizons · 03/09/2016 19:05

Having Googled further I find the statement that Ark Academies are committed to comprehensive education.
There is a lot about 'every child' and their potential. Nothing whatsoever about creaming some off aged 11yrs- telling them they are academic and telling 75% they are practical or technical. Far too early to predict potential.

OP posts:
sandyholme · 03/09/2016 23:11

As a result of our imaginative partnership with Simon Langton Grammar School for Boys, The Canterbury High School can offer the children and community of Canterbury and East Kent a genuine comprehensive option. The Canterbury High School is a 'school for all the talents' which strives for excellence in 4 areas: academic study, practical learning, performing arts and sport. The students at The Canterbury High School benefit from the impressive resources and facilities at The Canterbury Campus creating 'a wealth of opportunity' and enable us to provide 'as much as possible, as often as possible, for as many
as possible'.

Before any of you laugh be aware that 45 pupils from Canterbury's grammar schools transferred this year to Canterbury Academy !

sandyholme · 03/09/2016 23:17

www.kentadvice.co.uk/

What is even more remarkable about the Canterbury Academy story, is that it admitted 45 students from grammar schools, into its Sixth Form, going the other way.

BertrandRussell · 03/09/2016 23:25

Yes, Simon Langton Boys has a very selective 6th form indeed. And weeds out plenty of their own boys- that's how they keep their results so good!

sandyholme · 03/09/2016 23:38

They also give 'Autistic' boys a chance !

My DCs Essex grammar schools require at least 4 A or presuming (grade '7') for Sixth Form Entry!

Considering their requirements for A level studies Simon Langton's A level results are 'vin de table' C+ average or 223 points !

Well down on the average A level grade of B (230) points for grammar schools.

sandyholme · 03/09/2016 23:43

However, in my DCs grammar's anything less than a B at GCSE level means walking round with a paper bag over your face !

sandyholme · 04/09/2016 00:03

Just looked at DS (yr11) grammar 2015 GCSE results one boy got an 'F' in English .

'The Police must have been waiting there to escort him of the premises when he arrived for his GCSE results' ! He is now forced to wear a hoodie such is the disgrace.... HA HA

sandyholme · 04/09/2016 10:43

This gives statistics for entry from Kent's Non selective schools in to their grammar schools at sixth form:

Thursday, 25 August 2016 10:04
Transfer to Grammar Schools in the Sixth Form

Article that appeared in Kent on Sunday, 28 August 2016. Based on fuller article which you will find here.

Last year the two Thanet grammar schools, Dane Court and Chatham & Clarendon, admitted 124 students from non-selective (NS) schools into their Sixth Forms, whilst the two grammars in Folkestone took in just five between them. Dartford Grammar School recruited 107 new students but just two from NS schools. King Ethelbert's School saw 48 students transfer to grammar school Sixth Forms, although four other NS schools had no such transfers.

On the surface, an average intake of 16 NS students across the county for the Sixth Forms of the 32 grammar schools looks healthy, and I have always argued that the opportunity for a second chance to join a grammar school, in the Sixth Form, is a necessary criterion for a successful Selective System across the county. However, this average hides a massive variation, as too many grammar schools focus on recruiting the very top scorers in their chase for league table places.

Alternatives for taking A Levels, the key route to University and many professions, are shrinking with three of the four Further Education Colleges now having abandoned courses, focusing on vocational pathways.

However, there are 18 non-selective schools who run Sixth Forms with over 50 students who took A Levels in 2015, all but one achieving respectable A Level Grades. Largest were: Bennett Memorial (152 students); Hillview Girls (133); Fulston Manor (108); Homewood (103); and St Simon Stock (92). Compare these with the smallest grammar school, Barton Court, with just 76 A Level students.....

The three top scoring NS schools on average point score per A Level entry are in order: Mascalls; Westlands; and Bennett Memorial, all scoring better than five of the grammar schools. Many of the NS schools offer a mixed menu of A Level and vocational courses to their students allowing them to keep their options open.

One other school that stands out is the non-selective Canterbury Academy, which had the largest Sixth Form in Kent, with 589 students last September. Astonishingly it had the third largest increase in numbers of any Kent school from Year 11 to Year 12, up by 91, the only NS school in the county to show any increase. Most of these students are following its wide range of highly successful vocational courses,

A number of these NS schools are clearly taking in students from others where there may not be the same range of opportunities. Currently financial pressures on Sixth Forms have seen many others reduce the number of courses on offer, also the reason why three out of four Further Education Colleges have abandoned A Level.

One major problem is that Kent, with its wide geographical spread, sees each locality offering a different range of options at post 16. Under new government legislation all young people are required to stay in learning or training until the age of 18, but this can include full time study in school or college, part time education or training with work or volunteering, or taking up an apprenticeship or training. Kent County Council is required to enforce this but has no power to ensure the courses are provided.

So in Thanet, with the East Kent College having abandoned its A Level offering, and just two of the five NS selective schools offering small A Level groups, there is little alternative to the grammar schools for A Level courses, although they have welcomed the opportunity with open arms.

In Dartford, the four grammar schools admit just 28 non-selective students between them, the two Dartford Grammars chasing high grades and the two Wilmingtons having little room to expand. Perhaps as a result, most of the NS schools have thriving A Level provision. However, Ebbsfleet Academy which has no Sixth Form saw just four students transfer to grammar school, probably in Gravesend.

However, the most interesting District has to be Canterbury, with the two Langton Grammars taking in 43 NS students between them, whilst Barton Court Grammar admitted just four. Altogether Simon Langton Boys saw the second largest increase in numbers in the country, rising from Year 11, by 92 students to a total of 222 in Year 12. Simon Langton Girls’ Grammar School saw its roll slip sharply from 152 in Year 11 last year, to 122 in Year 12, in spite of an influx of 16 girls from non-selective schools. Barton Court Grammar, also in Canterbury, saw its Year 12 wither to 93 students, from 126 in Year 11, although it only attracted (or wanted?) just four students from NS schools. It certainly appears that as well as its positive attitude to NS students, there is a considerable transfer of grammar school students to the Boys’ school, a phenomenon that is repeated in some other towns.

One would assume that the overwhelming majority of children entering grammar school at age 11 would anticipate completing a seven year course to A Level there. However, this is not always the case, with some remarkable fall out rates including the examples above. However, the biggest fall was at Folkestone School for Girls, which rightly prides itself on its table topping A Level Grades. It managed to lose an overall 37 students, attracting just 4 NS girls to compensate. Why and where did so many girls choose to leave the school after their GCSEs?

So what does all this mean for those receiving their GCSE results this week? For those with a statistical bent, there is plenty of data out there to indicate which the best schools are in terms of academic progress from GCSE to A Level. But where does everyone else turn for objective advice? I recall when I was Chairman of what was then an Independent Kent Careers Service, we had independent staff based in various centres throughout Kent, and providing advice in each school so able to put flesh on some of the questions I hope this article has posed. The Careers Service has long since gone, and much of the advice in Kent is now provided by the school itself, theoretically required to be independent, but many schools will always have an interest in guiding the outcome. The Kent County Council website offers some basic advice at Kent Choices, although it covers none of the local situations discussed above. You will find some further advice on my website at www.kentadvice.co.uk, but I am afraid you are basically on your own, unless your child’s school does offer independent advice (to be fair, many do). Also on my website you will find an expanded version of this article, looking at each District separately and providing further data.

Last modified on Saturday, 27 August 2016 22:44
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