To think that 14 year olds who skip school should be punished rather than adults

[ReallyTired]

Legally parents can end up with a criminal record if their teen fails to attend school. In theory parents can be fined or even sent to jail for children not attending school.

I have been enjoying the break from battles to get my son to school, but I feel sick as September approaches.

There is very little help for the parents' of teens to get them into school. It is not practical to pick him and force him into the car. He is larger and stronger than both his parents. We would probably be done for child abuse if we did man handle him into the car.

My son has refused point blank help offered from CAMHS. He is Gilleck competent yet he is totally insulated from the consequences of his decision not to accept help. There is no possibility of him being punished by the criminal courts. There is no risk of him being taken into care unless his parents are jailed. There is no possibility of him being fined.

I feel that my son should shoulder some responsiblity for attending school. My son knows that he can do whatever he likes and nothing we can do other than deny him all access to all electronics and the Internet. There is no point in grounding him as he never goes out anyway. It does not matter how vile he as the fact that he is under 18 means he is shielded from any consequences unless he breaks criminal law. The law does not see it as the child's responsibility to attend school in any way whatsoever.

I dread the fact that kids now have to be in education or training until 18. Will parents be jailed when their 17 year old teen refuses to attend college? I think it would be fairer to jail the 17 year old.

School refusal is a difficult issue, but it's hard to have sympathy with a teen who is so uncooperative to receiving help. If parents cannot force their child to accept help against their wishes then parents should not be punished.

On this thread, OP thinks it's unreasonable that a parent should suffer financially if they can't make their own 14yo go to school.

On another thread I happened on today, the same OP thinks it's fine for university staff to suffer financially if they can't make their students get well-paid jobs.

Do you not see the smallest inconsistency here, OP?

Weve been through the same with ds1. School were unhelpful and didn't understand the issues (which we later found out was ASD and anxiety, plus years of bullying).
The "best" pieces of advice were "just put him in the car and bring him here" (how? He's 15, not 5!) and "we think you need to get very cross with him and ban privileges" (we we're very cross, and ds understood that school refusal meant no screens at all, didn't make any difference).
He would also not engage with CAMHS at all, he will talk about how he feels at home, with very familiar people, with others he masks and comes across as a normal, happy teenager. Tough love does not work with ds, we've tried this for over ten years. For many people tough love doesn't work. Children are not adults, if a child won't engage because they are told to, find an alternative, keep going until you find something that works for the individual. You can't get better until you have support, but the person has to be in the right frame of mind to accept it, and be with the right person. Neither of my boys would engage at CAMHS, the therapists were judgemental and patronising, the rooms were clinical and frightening to an anxious child. We found a charity that specialises in ASD, ds opened up straight away to the councillor there because they understood exactly what he was going through without once judging him or assuming he was being silly.
We took ds out of school to HE earlier this year. It's not a ridiculous idea, some DC just don't fit the school system, round peg square hole situation, and continuing to push some DC through this can be very damaging.
I wish I'd taken ds out much sooner, as pushing him through school has taken its toll on him.

And I havent even mentioned the financial implications. We were threatened with legal action, which pushed us to take ds out of school, because threat or no threat would make a difference to ds and getting him into school.

CAMHS is only good if it's anxiety/a mental health issue, and even so, CAMHS is really only for kids in acute crisis. Mine was a bone idle bog standard bolshy toerag truant.

You haven't replied to the question of whether you have investigated the underlying causes for his non-attendance. I will assume that you haven't based on your attitude towards mental illness.
Being mentally ill isn't a choice. If your son is experiencing anxiety around attending school then punishing him won't help. Your posts read as though your main concern is being seen to be a 'good' parent. You will find parents who have experienced this issue on the SN boards but I don't think you want advice, you seem to want vindication.

I was a school refuser ...I will admit I had all kinds of issues going on, I wasn't happy
But also I was awkward as hell and had worked out that if I decided not to go no-one could physically make me.
And honestly the more my parents got in trouble for me not going the more I liked it ...it seemed all about them - not me.
Didn't have internet etc then but they did stop giving me money...so I got a part-time job.
I was in trouble at school - but really didn't care. No-one could get through to me.
I was bored - I had had enough of school. I do think there is a strong argument for not making DCs continue in a classroom - let them go and do something else - just try and get them to do exams in English and Maths - then plumbing or brick laying or anything.
I did my O levels at 16 (just turned up for the exams -failed any that needed coursework) and got a few. I wanted to do a YOP (like an apprenticeship I guess) in something non-academic - I was considered too bright so they sent me off to A level college - I didn't last the year. Then I went to college to do something less academic at the basic level - I had too many O levels so they forced me onto a a higher level course - I dropped out after a year and got just the exams I needed part time whilst working...
(I went back to education in my late 20s, got my a levels, a degree and a doctorate...)

Forcing me to go until 18 for me would have been a joke...I couldn't have taken it.
I should say I suspect I have ADHD - waiting an assessment.
My DD1 (15) does have ADHD. I got her diagnosed just before 14 cos I suspected she was going to start school refusing - and it has helped. But the most important thing I think is that I emphasise it is all about her. At the end of the day if she doesn't go it isn't me that will suffer in the long run - it is her - I might have to pay a fine, get some bother but she will have limited life choices and make life harder for herself -and it is hard enough.

She just has to stick it long enough to get her exams - or as long as she can. (In Scotland she could go to college this year - I suggested she did - as it is a bit of a break from school -she has chosen to continue at school... )
I think that is the way to play it - stop trying to force them - making it a battle of wills - and let it become their choice. I can't force you, I am not prepared to battle with you any more over it...I want you to go to make your life easier in the long run.

Same with getting help from Cahms - as I would tell DD - it is an orange sweet* thing - you are choosing to behave like this, choosing not to get help - choosing to make your life harder and therefore I have limited sympathy for you. I will do anything I can to help you, I will support you however I can - but I can only do so much - I love you and I care for you but you have to be prepared to help yourself too.
(*orange sweets - years ago - parent said/thought if their DC ate a certain kind of sweet they went 'hyper'. At 9-10 they had those sweets in the school as a treat thing - the child deliberately ate lots of orange ones, went out of control, and got into lots of bother. (I suspect the sweets were just an excuse...but don't know that). But they weren't to blame - it was the orange sweets...except they were to blame really cos they had chosen to eat those sweets.... )

its all very well pointing out the extra subjects he could do at school, but if he flat out refuses to go and you cant make him go for love nor money, then you need to find another solution to his education

"Same with getting help from Cahms - as I would tell DD - it is an orange sweet* thing - you are choosing to behave like this, choosing not to get help - choosing to make your life harder and therefore I have limited sympathy for you. I will do anything I can to help you, I will support you however I can - but I can only do so much - I love you and I care for you but you have to be prepared to help yourself too. "

EXACTLY no one is saying that a child or indeed an adult can pull themselves together on their own. However they do have to make some effort. It is hard to feel sympathetic with someone who actively refuses help.

Adults with mental illness who make zero effort suffer the consequences of their decisions all the time. Often the prospect of losing their job or the threat of having children taken into care is a huge catalyst to engage with mental health/ gp services.

The reality is that schools or educational welfare officers are not sympathetic children without a diagnosis failing to attend school. Ds' school has tried to get him a councelling, but he has refused. Both the school and I have tried to get him to engage with CAMHS but again he had refused.

My son is seeing a community paediatrian after an eight month wait next month as I think he might be dyspraxic. I just hope he decides to cooperate.

I find it hard to feel sympathetic with someone who refuses help offered.

So he is probably dyspraxic, been referred to Camhs, been referred for counselling, but you want him punished?

The orange sweet thing doesn't work for every child though, sometimes a child needs more support and encouragement to get to that stage. Yes they need to accept help, but it's your job as his parent to work out why he's not able to do this.

You suspect dyspraxia - has he been getting any support for that in school? Has he ever been in a position where asking for help has been rewarded? This may be the key to him engaging.
Ds1's lack of engaging stems from him being treated as naughty and lazy. School, although he masks and looks fine, has been very traumatic for him and he has learnt that engaging = more trouble = more distress, so he backs off and masks even more to avoid making things worse.

He's your child, it's not as simple as finding it hard to feel sympathetic if he refuses help, it's about empathy with why he's got to this situation in the first place. It sounds very much like you're judging him, and that isn't going to help him to feel ok with who he is and learn the skills and strategies to deal with school and life. If you continue to dig your heels in, it's not going to suddenly make him do the things you want him to do.

It might be an idea to post in the SN section to ask about how to support your ds and how to encourage him to engage.

Schools aren't there (unfortunately) to be mindful of individual childs' needs. They should be, but they're just not. I think at this point you need to be the person that does this for him now.

And tbh if the Orange sweet thing does work, the child probably doesn't need the support anyway.

Doesn't need supporting as much I meant to say.
I have one Orange sweet child, she has anxiety and will engage because she can understand that that's how to be helped.
Many children don't have the skills (no matter how eloquent and NT they appear to the outside world) to do this, and they are the ones who are let down, unless they have someone on their side to recognise this and teach them those skills in a non-judgemental, understanding way, and that's where you come in. If he hasn't got you on his side, who has he got?

Pupils with dyspraxia are rarely adequately assessed or supported. Staff generally don't have the training and awareness around dyspraxia is poor. You could have him assessed privately by an OT who will be able to make recommendations to support him.

pig I would agree to an extent BUT we are talking about a 14 yo not a 5 yo. In a few years with or without SN he is either going to have to be independent or be reliant on you for ever.
Part of the job of being a parent is to get them ready for life ...to take responsibility for themselves, to learn to cope in the world, to control their behaviour - if they are capable of ever doing that.
I understand that certain aspects of life are harder for DD...I have told her it is like she is running up a hill - others are taking great big strides and she has her legs tied together but she can still get up that hill -it is just much harder for her - but she can do it. I appreciate how hard it is for her.
She said herself on diagnosis - it an explanation not an excuse.

She obviously sees consultants etc, I've been on a course for parents with teens (with ADHD). This taking responsibility for their actions is a constant theme - you support them, you negotiate with them etc, you make allowances but at the end of the day they HAVE to do it for themselves...
For the OP I would try and have an open discussion with your DS - not about school refusing but about why he doesn't feel like he can get help. (DD and I have our best chats in the car...) Does he not think he needs it etc... In 2 yrs it will be exams and to have choices in life he needs to do the best he can in those (although at worse he can go back and do them later - but that is harder) Even worse after 16 it is much harder to get any help for things like SN (I know I had a friend whose child refused help - now at 16.5 wants help - but it is a battle to get any).
Having SN is not all negative - thinking different to most people has its advantages - people like Richard Branson are reported to have various SN and didn't 'do well' at school...etc. Also it is nothing to be ashamed of ...we live in an artificial world - humans didn't evolve to sit behind desks all day and work 9-5. Your SN exists as it would confer an advantage in certain circumstances and if you find the find direction in life you can make that work for you - you just have to get through the hell that is school. And - I would have hated to be my parents - although they didn't handle it well ...it is the one thing I was frightened DD would do...just glad its so far so good.

The op's ds is 14, he has lagging skills due to dyspraxia, he is school refusing, he is refusing to engage with help. Going down a route of tough love doesn't look like it's had much success so far.

And it's wise not to compare DC, that he's got to 14 doesn't really matter, it's not a case of do this now or live at home for ever, it doesn't work like that.

A diagnosis is an explanation, not an excuse, but can also give clues as to where support is needed. It's also important to understand that he is behaving in this way for a reason, not be a little git, not to get the op into trouble, there will be a reason for him that he can't do this, but he might not be able to identify and articulate why, and if he can't do that, he won't be able to advocate for himself.

Ds1 (ASD, ticks boxes for dyslexia and dyspraxia) was not able at 14 to discuss why he felt the way he did, it's common in neuro conditions for a child to have difficult expressing themselves and identifying why they feel a certain way.
He doesn't yet understand at 15 the full consequences of his actions, so we carry on working with him and finding any examples we can to help him to learn.
If he's forced to do stuff, or if we back off in order for him to do it himself, it doesn't work, we've tried that, on the advice of teachers for years, it doesn't work. If it did work, I suspect he's still be in school, successfully preparing for his GCSEs, instead of us having to take him out to protect his failing mental health.
You can't expect a child to do these things for themselves if they don't have the skills to be able to do them. For some DC, expecting them to engage with a patronising stranger is as big a deal as handing them a complicated flat packed chest of drawers with no instructions and saying "here, do this, you have to finish this within an hour". It can be terrifying, and monstrous pressure, and can be physically impossible.

Not every method works with every child, despite what teachers and CAMHS think!

If the op finds that the "Orange sweet" method works, expecting her ds to take full responsibility without careful guidance and support to,get there, then brilliant, but I hope that if it doesn't work, the op will be sensitive to her ds's needs, and understand that not all DC are the same, and cannot be parented in the same "do as I say because I say so" method that so many advocate.

pig I think we are misunderstanding each other to a degree - I am not really advocating tough love.
I said talk to him - you can suggest reasons why he might be refusing help..is it because you think, are worried about xyz? etc. Accept it isn't easy for him but talking to someone can and will help. Not talking and nothing will change - and is he happy as he is?

Punishing, shouting etc will not you very far.
The idea is you are honest with them - at the end of the day if someone - be it an adult or older child - refuses help there is actually very little you can do about it - no matter how much you wish you could. You can only try and persuade them to get help - for themselves (not for you or for anyone else) -it is all about them and their life.
And talking to a patronising stranger ...I go to appts with DD1 - she wants me to go. It took seeing her last consultant 4-5 times over a year or so to be able to talk to them -and that is still with me doing the most talking. She is about to start an older teen clinic - where she talks to someone on her own and then they talk with both of us - she doesn't want to go. So for the first time at least if she wants me to go in with her on the day and they will let me (and I think they are going to have to ) I will - until she is ready to go on her own.
I've just been into the school with her discussing something about her exams - when I think I shouldn't have needed to - most other children at her age wouldn't take a parent with them (I checked first with her teacher that it could be done without embarrassing her). But she thought she needed me to go and I will support her - no matter what. If she had refused to go in to talk about it at all - I would have been less sympathetic. I couldn't do it for her - she needed to cooperate - take some responsibility...

unlucky, children are different in whether they are able to pick up support or not

dd needed physio for her joint pains: the problem was, she was in too much pain to do the physio and the anxiety that brought on led to more pain

she only really managed it once she was old enough to take seriously strong painkillers and anti-depressants (to cope with her anxiety around anything that might cause more pain)

it wasn't that she didn't want to help herself; it was that she couldn't because she was too ill

in the same way, though she always politely went to CAHMS meetings and engaged on the surface, she was not able to get anything out of them until her MH issues were treated (ADs), because the mental pain was so great that she could not allow the conversation to get onto any of her real issues. She got quite brilliant at getting the talk to go the way she wanted; don't think the psychiatrists ever realised- but I did...

once she was in a state where she could cope with it, it was great and wonderful and did everything she needed- but she had to get there first

so having seen what I have seen, I would be very reluctant to assume that anyone who does not get help- particularly a teenager- is simply being perverse.

With older children and physio you need a really experienced physio.
With the NHS physio my son was discharged before the problem was resolved. He is now seeing a private physio who is much better. The appointments are longer and she checks he is doing the excercise X properly and is not in too much pain. Ds has had his calf muscles massaged before doing his stretches. He has been told how to simplify the excercises if they are too painful. The NHS physio would not let me video my son doing the exercises because of trust policy. Teens are at risk of falling through cracks with adult services.

Teens don't understand that the consequences of their behaviour affects other people. There is a disconnect that parents can be fined or even jailed for their teen's truancy even if the do everything asked for them. I am not sure that making parents a whipping boy for a teen's refusal to go to school is fair. (Even if it does work.) Fining parents for not attending meetings about truancy or fining parents who refuse to attend a parenting course or take children on holiday is entirely proper. Criminalising parents often hurts sibblings.

I feel the state/schools should have more options to punish teens who refuse to attend school/ engage with those who are trying to help them. Punishment is not appriopiate in every case, but should be the option if justified. Teens need to take responsiblity for their actions. We aren't talking about five year olds.

I think at the most simplistic level the punishment is directed at the parent because it's assumed you failed to parent him in his youth in a way that would cause him to listen to you and follow your directions.

of course thousands of intervening factors occur but I think at the heart of it, that is the reason

But Really, when your ds is assessed, if he is diagnosed with dyspraxia, do you think you'll see that he needs to be taught the skills to take responsibility?

And yes, as ll87 said, it's assumed it's the parents fault. When ds was school refusing it was frustrating, but it still wasn't ds's fault, as he was reacting to the lack of support at school in the only way he knew how. To add punishment on top of the shitty treatment (disguised as care and support) in school would have been barbaric. Poor boy would have been even more of a wreck.

I would also suggest that a teen with AN is less likely to understand the consequences of their actions as school life is already much more difficult than their peers and needs to put in so much more effort to get through than many people will give credit for.

I think you need to forget about who is to blame and who should be punished and focus on your son who needs to be understood and given some effective support. I find it a bit odd that your only concern seems to be the threat of punishment rather than your ds who is clearly struggling, and how to help him.

I agree that punishing parents whose children are struggling is unfair. But this does not automatically mean that punishing the struggling child is going to be very productive either. If punishing was all that was required, could we not have managed that as parents?

ReallyTired

You have my utmost sympathy and admiration.

It is an unfair situation, but I don't have an answer to it.

One of the biggest problems is that schools var so much on how they respond to school refusers.

I sympathise with your son. Ultimately if this is a free society it's got to be his right to choose his educational setting.

As for not getting out of bed, that's fairly rational if what happens when he gets out of bed is that people chase him around. It makes a lot of sense to spend his waking life during hours that he can't be forced to go to school because it isn't open.

On the plus side, he's getting a sort of education - in moral fortitude.

Somebody said something above along the lines of "is he sick or is he just getting what he wants". What's wrong with getting what you want? So long as what you want is not actively bad (which not going to school isn't; it's a reasonable educational choice, especially given how readily available even quite narrowly defined education is nowadays), getting what you want is good.

In answer to your actual question, it's pretty easy to perform your educational duty because it's been very liberally construed by the courts, so I hardly think that the situation is oppressive for the parent. Deregistration is available on demand, so the fines are essentially self-inflicted. To make it a crime (or pseudo-crime) for the child not to go to school would transform school attendance from an educational opportunity to a form of conscription, which I think would go against some of British society's values.

I think you should just deregister.

Just going by your heading, OP, my dd's friend had the opposite experience in Ireland. Her mum used to keep her off school to look after her little brothers and sisters, while the mum slept. Dd's friend loved school and was loved by the teachers. But she was the threatened with being sent to a reformatory for missing school, not her mum who was the one responsible for her absences.