Girls - co-ed or single sex secondary?

[Cornygirl]

Just that really!?!

Dd is moving from a small independent girls school to a huge coed state 6th form.

Some parents reactions are hilariously over the top. You'd think I was deliberately planning to sabotage her life chances.

She is studying history and maths, both of which are boy heavy at this school (plus psychology no boys in her class!) . She's looking forward to it.

MN164 I'm not particularly impressed by the mantra about tendencies to do better/ worse etc when it comes to deciding what to do with my own kids. I have an even number of boys and girls and they don't distinguish themselves along gender lines, so it would be odd to separate them for school. I myself went to what was then a highly academic all girls' school and although I was fine with it then, being the norm in those days, I'd kick against it now unless the school had an exceptionally close relationship with a boys school which was also geographically close. These schools are left over from the hey day of the expansion of female education and need to sell their wares to keep open. Only three of almost seventy Oxbridge colleges are female only and I don't think a single one remains at any of the other collegiate universities of which there are several.

The girls at our co-ed school, which is very high achieving, actually outperform the boys as a whole and that's been the case for years. One of the two local girls' schools in the nearest city has closed because of declining numbers and the other struggles badly to retain numbers after GCSEs. It also does significantly worse than our (state) school despite also being selective. The other main selective independent school in the city does extremely well both on numbers and with results, and is co-ed. Certainly the latter has a widespread reputation for being healthier and happier as an institution.

My girls weren't in any way unique at their school. Many, many girls do equally well if not better and many boys match or better their achievements too (given that school isn't just about A*s but about other activities too - some kids of both sexes amaze me). At university there's been a strong theme of their friends who attended co-ed school being more comfortable with that than their girlfriends who went to single sex, where a lot of what have been called 'myths' have been discussed. My DDs have found a tendency for boys going single sex to be a bit silly with girls at least initially, but they haven't heard toxic stories about the atmosphere about boys' only schools - that seems to be the preserve of the girls' schools.

DD is at single sex but that was because it seemed like a better school than the co-ed option, it wasn't the deciding factor. She is doing much better at Maths now but her school does have a great reputation for Maths teaching! Then to agree that it depends on the individual schools.

I went to an girls' school from 11-18 and loved it. For most of my career I've been in a male environment, managing mostly male teams, never been a problem. My DD is also in an all-girls school and loves it. She mixes with boys at home and in out of school activities but a girls' school suits her really well.

"I want school life and adult life to be free of discrimination and full of equal opportunity and fair reward for merit, but it isn't and single sex schooling clearly helps a small number of girls do better whilst protecting them from harm/issues that as, say an 11 or 13 year old, they are neither mature enough or should be expected to deal with (google sexual harassment stats at school)."

Spoken like a true Head of a Girls school.

A local girl's school to me is currently 'hushing up' a complaint of abuse, by a 6th year girl (18 ) against a year 8 girl (13) in their boarding house and this has not been the first incident!

Abusers, harasser's, bullies and those who discriminate don't just wear trousers, they wear skirts too!

And I'd have thought it easier to measure discrimination, equal opportunity and fair reward for merit if you were a girl competing alongside boys at a co-ed school rather than simply competing against your own sex. Not sure how isolating girls academically does much to help with anti discrimination etc etc - that doesn't make sense.

Agree 100% with goodbyestranger!

Single sex schools is nothing short of segregation- segregation means to set apart because something is considered different. To send your daughter to a same sex school for the reasons MN164 has stated, is a bit of an oxymoron.
In my humble opinion, some girls will thrive in a same sex environment and some will not. It is down to the child, the quality of teaching, the leadership of the school and a whole array of social and emotional factors. I am sure somewhere in the mix, same sex does play a small part but it is certainly not the key ingredient to academic success.

Depends on the child, the school options and what other outlets they have in their lives. DD has been at an all girls since year 3. She found the boys disruptive and was glad to leave them behind but we moved her to a school that was the best fit for her regardless of whether co-Es or SS. She does sports outside of school which have a majority of boys so she does mix with the other sex. Back in the eighties I chose a co-ed but it wasn't the best decision as there were more local all-girls schools so my school had 7 girls in each class and 21 boys. Sports days were horrid and the small number of friendship groups despite there being five classes did lead to problems. I was one of three girls who did physics and I was the only girl in my class - I loved the subject but it didn't make for much fun as there was taunting from the boys. The girls were expected to do general science which had a 'how to make make-up' module' so back then even the curriculum was sexist. So if considering co-ed do check on the ratio of boys to girls. It is nice to hear on this thread that co-education sounds much better now than the experience I had.

There is an inconsistency between what I would like and what evidence supports. I thought I made that clear. It's not an oxymoron.

As I said before, it's great to hear success stories for girls at co-ed schools. There is more data available than your own children. That data is only relevant if you are interested in the picture outside your own house.

MN164 This research that you quote doesn't happen to be that published by the GSA does it - the evidence that you post is very similar to that quoted on their website? Are you a parent or do you work at an all girls school?
In the context of a parent choosing a school for their daughter the main concern is indeed choosing the best school to suit their child. Having said that in the LEA where I live there is only one state girls school (approx 10 co-ed schools within a similar distance). Co-ed schools perhaps cater for all pupils better in such areas than those with a large number of single sex schools.

MN164 my interest and activity in education goes way beyond the confines of my own house and children and isn't purely theoretical (not saying that yours is of course; I've no idea!).

I've seen first hand over a passage of many years how co-education works for both girls and boys and that has given me far more insight into the benefits than a few bits of self serving data issuing from girls schools!

Do you have a DD at a fee paying school?

Girls schools are still hanging on the shirt tails of their past success.
Feminism movements in the 60's, ensured that girls were no longer expected to go to home economics class whilst the boys went off to the science lab...they were given an equal playing field.
Girls schools were quick to latch onto this. Girls did not suddenly start achieving great results in maths and science, because they went to girls schools, as many would have you believe. They were achieving great results because they were actually being taught these subjects to the same level as boys.

I have nothing against same sex schools, whatever works for YOUR child is always the right choice! I have sent my children to same sex schools and co-ed and my experience of both has been mixed, however, as long as the standard of teaching is high, leadership is good and the environment compliments your child's personality they will thrive on an academic. Socially, however, I believe that co-ed prepares children better for the world beyond school .....but that is just my personal opinion.

Some posters appear to be trying to undermine opinions by calling into question the integrity of the opinion holder. Not a technique that covers them in debating glory. For the record I'm not a teacher and I don't have a daughter a fee paying single sex school. I have a daughter at a state co-ed primary and am researching secondary school choices for her. It sounds to me that I am the one without the "bias of personal experience" and am perhaps just as impartial as anyone else her.

The NSPCC, DoE and GirlGuides have all published research on bullying and harassment.

The Centre for Longitudinal Research did a good study on this topic.
www.cls.ioe.ac.uk/page.aspx?sitesectionid=363&sitesectiontitle=Single-sex+schools

This is good research too

www.sciencecampaign.org.uk/resource/ImprovingDiversityinSTEM2014.html

"At school level, the same proportion of girls and boys take all three sciences up until age 16. At A-level however, some gender gaps appear, slightly in favour of girls for biology with larger gaps in favour of boys for mathematics and physics. The number of females taking Chemistry, Physics and Mathematics A-level has increased, but at a lower rate than for males. This does mean that nationally, more young people of both sexes are studying STEM subjects, which is to be celebrated. An often quoted figure is that only one in five A-level physics students are female, a proportion that has not improved in 20 years. The uptake of physics does vary by school type with independent and single sex schools enrolling a higher proportion of girls to study STEM A-levels. Nearly half of state schools, however, didn’t send a single girl on to do A-level physics. In Wales figures even are more worrying. In 2013 there were falls in the number of girls studying every science subject at A-level, alongside an increase for boys. This was most pronounced in Physics with an 11% fall for girls but a 5% increase for boys. It is a crisis in participation, not performance with girls outperforming or matching their male peers’ grades."

goodbyestranger

"I've seen first hand over a passage of many years how co-education works for both girls and boys and that has given me far more insight into the benefits than a few bits of self serving data issuing from girls schools!"

Is that "first hand" knowledge through a role in education for many students or just that of family and friends? Which is the better data set and whose purposes is it serving?

Co-ed! My DD (14) group of friends is mixed but mostly boys because she just generally prefers them to girls because they're not bitchy and not as many fallings out. She feels much happier with this newer group of friends which is mixed

A role in education in addition to the very useful knowledge gleaned through my family and friends.

MN164 it's fair to say that you'd like your daughter to go to a selective single sex independent, no? You've been fairly open about that on these boards, so while you may not actually have a DD at one of those schools, you're on the cusp! Same deal really.

But am worried about moving them at A Level - isn't that really distracting? Especially going from SS to co-ed?

I know one anecdote isn't data, but my dd left her all girls school last Summer to go to a co-ed 6th form, and is still struck by how socially awkward so many of the lads pupils are in her 6th form, compared with the confident young women she left behind in her (ordinary state, comprehensive) secondary school. She is definitely not distracted by these lads, except slightly in a 'people watching' type way.

I think the key to attending a single sex school, is to ensure during your hobbies / leisure time you spend lots of time with all sorts of people (I'd actually say that for any sort of 'selection, including grammar). Neither of my dds think boys are some kind of alien species.

DD has just done year 7 at all-girls' grammar. She has had a fab year. The girls are all lovely and supportive - she has made lovely friendships. There is no bitching or angsting about boys - that may come, but is not present now. It has been vg for dd in terms of academia and study.

Before that she was at a middle school where was there was much focus on the boys - they impacted class, distracted, disrupted things, the girls all wanted a boyfriend and it seemed too grown-up.

This is much better.

"It sounds to me that I am the one without the "bias of personal experience" and am perhaps just as impartial as anyone else here. "

Err, exactly, you have no 'personal experience'. Your perceived knowledge of single sex schools is based on what you have read.

"The uptake of physics does vary by school type with independent and single sex schools enrolling a higher proportion of girls to study STEM A-levels. Nearly half of state schools, however, didn’t send a single girl on to do A-level physics. In Wales figures even are more worrying"

Since almost ALL girls schools THESE DAYS are "independent schools" the comparison is not between same sex or co-ed, it is between state school and independent school.......So that part of your argument has just lost merit.

"Is that "first hand" knowledge through a role in education for many students or just that of family and friends? Which is the better data set and whose purposes is it serving"

The data being put out by girls schools is self serving.
The vast majority of research into the benefits of single sex has been funded by single sex schools and bodies who promote them, such as the GSA. As you indicated, your experience is limited to co-ed. Don't believe everything you read in the glossy girls school brochures

She won't have to deal with sexual harassment and/or assault, which is a real problem, even at naice, middle-class schools.

Don't be so sure, I was subject to both.

We have a good number of all girls state comps in our area, Bullers Wood, Chilskehurst school for girls, Langley Park school for girls. co-incidentally two independent schools Farringtons and Babington recently moved from single sex to co-ed. the first all the way through , the latter remains all girls 11-16 but mention as generalisations that only independents are all girls are not true for all areas.

All girls education might be good for some years but by year 11 it becomes 'boring and weird' dds words

Thanks for all the info MN164.

In our area, there are 4 all-girls schools, 1 selective independent, 1 state selective and 2 state non-selective schools.

I do think it depends on the child's life 'in the round', as well as their specific character.

DD dances - a pressurised, competitive, body-conscious, appearance-focused, perfectionist, very female-dominated world (her dance school is very good about the body consciousness thing, but the fact remains that she spends 12 hours a week in leotard and tights in rooms lined with mirrors ).

2 all-girls options were available to her for secondary, as well as a mixed school. We sent her to the mixed one - despite the dancing, she has always got on better with boys, had many male friendships and relishes the often much more straightforward social interactions that boys have rather than the more complex friendship games played by girls.

Had she had a strongly mixed-sex out-of-school life - for example, she used to be involved in Scouting, she could like DS be involved in music, but both these have been overtaken by dancing due to sheer pressure on time - then we would have considered the all-girls option more seriously, because it would just have been a different way of creating balance. But dance every night and all-girls during the day would have been too much for her, given her particular character.

I do think it also depends on the presence or absence of boys in the family circle. I was at an all-girls school (chosen because of its academic excellence and 100% scholarships, and because the era of mixed-sex boarding schools had barely dawned at that point) but had 2 brothers and a range of male cousins. Those who found things more difficult - and at the time there were a fair number of highly stereotypical 'move to the newly mixed sixth forms of all boys schools and go off the rails' type events - tended to be those who had fewer male influences elsewhere in their lives - in a way that i think would be much rarer nowadays.