UK students, maths and universities

[happygardening]

Thought Id post on here to get maximum traffic. I have no particular view on this Im interested in others opinions.
I was recently talking to a friends DD a charming Asisn girl, she is at a top London university (she wasn't interviewed) studying maths stats etc, she told me that 90% of her fellow students are Asian. I have no problem with this but I'm wondering why?
Possible reasons:

1. The vast majority of applicants are Asians, UK students just simply don't apply. If they don't why not? Is the accommodation too expensive? Is generally living in London too expensive? They're not interested math and oth related subjects? They simply don't pull in the right grades? Or they're not encouraged to apply to top universities by their schools?
2. Top universities positively discriminate for non UK students because they pay significantly more fees?
3. Asians are better at math so top universities want them?
4. Asians have a better work ethic do top universities want them.

(Gross stereotype I know).

1. Should we be concerned that so few UK students want to study math and related subjects?

I genuinely dont know the answer to any of these questions or maybe there are better explanations I will watch the replies with interest.

I hope she knows the difference between anecdata and actual data...

For what it's worth I've just looked up the actual data - 40% of IC Maths undergrads are from Asia (that includes India, Pakistan etc, not just SE Asia). Incidentally there are hundreds of maths students at Imperial....

As for your comment: I would have thought that you can tell instantly by looking at someone if they're from HK China Malaysia etc or am I missing something here? - errr just because someone is, or looks ethnically Chinese doesn't mean they ARE Chinese. They could be from Liverpool for all you know.

I shall enquire again when I next see her.

I cannot tell merely by looking at a Chinese, certainly not instantly, which Asian country (s)he comes from - China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, The Philippines, Malaysia, Singapore, Thailand or even Japan - unless they begin talking. And I've lived in one of the aforesaid countries more years than you have fingers and toes on your limbs. For that matter, I don't think any Chinese themselves is bold enough to be able to make that claim. Come to think of it, I can't tell an Eskimo from a Chinese if I were to see them having lunch together at the Wong Kei Restaurant in Leicester Square.

Or they could come from England, or Wales, or France....

I do an occasional guest lecture in a vocational maths-based subject at City University.

There are virtually no UK students in the lectures - I asked the lecturer who invites me and he confirmed that they are non-UK not British Asian or British Chinese. When they ask questions, you can pick it up in their accents as well - typically a strong overseas accent.

I don't have a problem with this (and neither does the lecturer) but it is noticeable and I am curious as to the reasons. Presumably children of wealthy overseas parents to be able to afford the cost of living in London as a student.

My DD went to a school where lots of Chinese girls arrived for the 6th form. Only London would do if Oxbridge was not possible. The Saudi Arabian girls only wanted London or the USA ( to avoid spending time in Saudi) and the same for the vast majority of the international girls she met, including South Africans, Russians and numerous students from other Asian countries. Obviously these students do go to other UK universities but these wealthy parents can easily afford the living costs in London and actually have properties there in the first place. Anecdotally, I have heard of a course at Imperial with 2 "white British" students on it. 40% from Asia is not the whole story! Plenty from other regions of the world!

Also, apart from Oxbridge, who interviews for Maths? STEP is used by the top universities and after that the normal requirements of A levels, personal statement, references etc. Don't forget the figures for overseas students is sometimes for the whole university, not a faculty or a course. Therefore if lots of home students are studying English or History, this balances the number of international students studying Maths. The pull of London is undeniably great, especially for the well off. Does Warwick have such a large international contingent on their maths courses? Often overseas students like to go where there are lots of other students like them and London is the obvious choice.

I don't have a problem with this (and neither does the lecturer) but it is noticeable and I am curious as to the reasons.

Aren't most of the reasons obvious? City is a relatively low ranked university and needs to take as many international students as it can for subjects such as maths to increase its income. Globally maths is much more valued as a degree subject than it is for UK students, so places such as City can relatively easily fill maths places charging £13.5k per year (which is pretty cheap for non-EU fees).

International students indeed tend to look at lower ranked universities in London rather than better ranked universities outside London, since the undergraduate rankings are often not well-known in their home countries anyhow.

Throughout the UK (with the exception of Oxbridge, and perhaps places such as Warwick), maths departments are looking to take as many international students as they can, both on undergraduate courses and taught masters courses. (Actually even Oxbridge is pretty happy to take lots of students on taught masters provided they meet minimum standards.)

They need to, to make up for the decreasing income from home students (fees fixed, not covering costs) and research councils (budgets at best flat lined, in most cases being decreased substantially in real terms and diverted away from blue skies research into short term applied research).

Zigster: were they post graduate ones?

Now that the caps on student numbers has been removed does anyone know if higher ranked Universities have increased the number of spaces on maths degrees?

What would you call higher ranked? Certainly there are top 10 and top 20 maths departments which have increased (undergraduate) student numbers, but Oxbridge has not. Overall the total number of students studying maths has increased (by 10%, maybe more, I don't recall) since 2012. There are RG universities which have increased their maths undergraduates by significantly more than 10% (e.g. 20-30%) and others which have not. It is undoubtedly easier to get into top 20 universities for maths now than it would have been five years ago.

London maths undergraduate courses typically have around 25% non-EU international students.

40% of IC Maths undergrads are from Asia (that includes India, Pakistan etc, not just SE Asia). Incidentally there are hundreds of maths students at Imperial.

I'm not sure how both sets of data can be correct unless the second relates to ethnic origin or the first is out of date.

There are over 20 institutions in London. IC is only one. IC's proportion of Asian (not ethnicity, domicile) students is higher than other London universities. Not sure why that should flag a discrepancy.

I thought we were talking about top maths courses from the OP titchy hence confusion. Imperial is one of only a very few London universities regarded as top maths courses. Also from what disq has said, the proportion of international students may be even higher at the lower ranked courses.

No, the proportion of international students is not necessarily higher at lower ranked universities - City is an example of a place which is strongly targeting international students (but I would be very surprised if they were really vastly in the majority on the whole undergraduate maths programme as a PP suggested) but not all lower ranked institutions get so many foreign students.

And at the other end, UCL has around 20% non-EU maths undergraduates in the last figures I saw (which admittedly are from 2013). Imperial is and always has been on the high end for foreign students. As titchy says there are lots of institutions in (greater) London.

Certainly the figure quoted in meetings is around 25% non-EU maths undergraduates in London, but indeed this figure may have increased over the last couple years. I would very much doubt that the figure has gone much higher than 30-35% on average across all London institutions, though.

BTW one also has to be careful that maths can have stand alone fourth year programmes which count as undergraduate (for home finding reasons) but which in practice are attended by large numbers of non-EU students as masters courses. This fact alone pushes up the percentage of non-EU students in Oxbridge, if these fourth years are included in the undergraduate count, and may also affect London figures, although London tends to do more MSc than stand alone fourth year programmes.

I don't know but suspect early maths tuition is better in some Asian countries. Dds school has many Asian boarders who all seem to arrive as maths whizz kids and populate the top maths set. I would say top maths set is 75% Asian students in a school where general population is 20%. Combination of aptitude ( selection by school in first place) parental expectations of hard work and own self drive. Interestingly school is a very enabling one but there is some prejudice for not applying for maths at Oxbridge or top London uni unless you are a total maths genius.