UK students, maths and universities

[happygardening]

Thought Id post on here to get maximum traffic. I have no particular view on this Im interested in others opinions.
I was recently talking to a friends DD a charming Asisn girl, she is at a top London university (she wasn't interviewed) studying maths stats etc, she told me that 90% of her fellow students are Asian. I have no problem with this but I'm wondering why?
Possible reasons:

1. The vast majority of applicants are Asians, UK students just simply don't apply. If they don't why not? Is the accommodation too expensive? Is generally living in London too expensive? They're not interested math and oth related subjects? They simply don't pull in the right grades? Or they're not encouraged to apply to top universities by their schools?
2. Top universities positively discriminate for non UK students because they pay significantly more fees?
3. Asians are better at math so top universities want them?
4. Asians have a better work ethic do top universities want them.

(Gross stereotype I know).

1. Should we be concerned that so few UK students want to study math and related subjects?

I genuinely dont know the answer to any of these questions or maybe there are better explanations I will watch the replies with interest.

How on earth can you tell by looking at someone where they're from

I'm assuming she hasn't passport checked every single IC student she sees? (Not that fee status is as simple as nationality but close enough...)

The overseas students if Theresa May gets her own way will have to leave the UK once they graduate anyway so they won't be in competition with UK graduates for UK jobs.

ps: plus the fact she wasn't interviewed.
Or maybe it's a foundation course for non-EU applicants, prior to getting onto a PG course. The filtering to get onto those (I'm told) is not very rigorous, so may not interview.
LSE is only 3 of the above that seems to not routinely interview for undergrad math.

Here if you're interested in proportion of Undergraduates that are overseas:

http://www.thecompleteuniversityguide.co.uk/international/international-students-the-facts/by-university/

DD will be applying to read maths but won't be going to London due to cost, distance of uni accom from lectures and the slightly scary vibe she felt walking the streets near UCL and Imperial.

That table of international u-grads includes EU-students, so not fitting (perhaps) with stereotype of Asian appearance = Asia origin.

25% China.. not sure if that's OP's conversant's definition of Asian. Lots of Chinese at my local Uni. They compete for a limited number of spaces allocated to non-EU, not the spaces allocated for EU/UK. About 9% India-Bangladesh-Pakistan.

Maybe it's the way maths is taught here? When DH and his siblings moved over here when they were children, and later his two cousins, they were feted as maths geniuses because they were so advanced. They weren't really but came from somewhere with a very vigorous maths syllabus (and strict teachers).

They were also very impressed that times tables actually went to to twelve and not ten.

I know a current year 13 who has received offers for Maths for Durham, Warwick and Imperial. She hasn't yet made up her mind, but Warwick is doing a huge amount to make itself more attractive than the others.
Not only is she really bright, but is head girl and has a lovely amount of extra stuff to go along with. From what I am seeing with her Imperial seem to feel they don't need to make themselves attractive to candidates. I find it sad as an Imperial graduate myself that they have not emphasised some of it's really great points.

I'm at a mid-range university studying maths and i'd say a good 90% of people on my course are british. It's not in London.

I know there are a lot of problems with education in the UK but I'm not sure I'd have wanted my kids to have been subjected to some Asian education systems. Very, very long days, Saturday school, relentless tutoring, lots of competition and lots and lots of pressure.
It not always about the results.

UK schools, apart from really top notch ones, struggle to put a warm body in front of a maths class. My DS lost three of four teachers in the second half iof the winter term, at As level. The school seems to have made up the ground but it is not the same school that we chose for A levels a year ago.

We use two tutors, if I am being honest. DS is only interested in subjects at uni which will require good grades in maths, but is not a natural. Both tutors are students at top universiies (UCL and Durham, both reading Physics). DS hopes to do the MMeng in computer Science at Bristol and will need A grades which from a B at GCSE is a major step up, but so far they are happy he has it. And if it can be taught on line, via the web, why can't it be taught in school? We have only been doing this 10 weeks and the difference in his confidence is enormous.

Of all European countries, France is still most popular regarding to pure maths subjects and the entrance is very very hard also exams. You could be kicked out too if you couldnt catch up( Poly or similar rank). Uk is second best though, applied maths is better in uk. Most still british students(doesnt mean English/white). I dont care whether its english or British as long as the entrance is tough, standard still very high then the talents all over the world is welcome, itsthe only to keep up the competition. Otherwise, firms will start recruiting graduate from other top univs oversea(passing graduate 5 rounds of tests, interviews then all graduates are granted work permit). Good jobs will attract talents. The best thing I love about London is it doesnt matter what was your background, woman or man as long as you passed the competition, work hard and progressing well then you are ok. In my previous jobs there was only about 10% were english(IB). In my job now, there are about 30 people and only 3 are English(the biggest boss is English though and 2 others are very junior). All head of desks are international from all backgrounds, none are English. (Most people must or should have maths background)

It makes sense. Coming here for u/grad studies from outside the EU is very expensive and therefore only those with generous financial backing of some sort can do it. Simultaneously, there is the 'pull factor' that London has an international location. So if you are well-funded, ambitious and from overseas, UCL, LSE, Imperial etc look attractive and the cost of living isn't perturbing.

UK students often have to be more budget conscious and are aware of the UK as being more than the capital, and so the domestic high-achievers look to Oxbridge, Durham, Warwick, Bristol etc etc.

And actually, titchy's link broadly bears that instinctive explanation out.

that London has as^ an international....

I remember vividly when I went from a very very male dominated environment ( < 10% women) to a moderately male dominated one (~25% women) my first thought on walking into a large room full of people in the latter was "this place is full of women!". Seriously, my brain was telling me women were in the majority, when in fact it wasn't so. I wonder whether something similar could be happening here; she perceives the proportion to be much higher than it really is, because it's a change.

For Imperial it may be a self perpetuating trend. I have heard some present and prospective students say that even compared to other top London universities Imperial not a very social environment even in the halls; hardworking students apparently rarely come out of their rooms. Although that may be exaggerated quite a few bright British teenagers that I know have been put off by that reputation although not put off for example by the hard work of Oxbridge. I think overseas Asians may regard the reputation as more of a plus.

That is true, Sendsummer
Ds had a fantastic week on a Headstart course at Imperial, but he had researched and heard about the lack of social life, we live half an hour from the City , so diesnt need the London experience and didnt want to the exorbatant cost of halls. It would have been an aspirational application anyway.
His friend applied and got an an interview and had to wait so long for the result he cancelled his application as he was happy with his other offers.

There is no undergraduate maths course in the UK which is 90% Asian - the starting premiss is false. London maths undergraduate courses typically have around 25% non-EU international students. On the other hand it is true that amongst home students those of South Asian, Hong Kong etc origin are disproportionately likely to apply for maths (and other STEM subjects). Nowhere near 90% of any undergraduate maths class is of Asian descent, however.

There are masters courses in maths (stats etc) which have much higher fractions of non-EU international students. This is because there is still very little funding available for home students and also, quite frankly, because such courses are primarily cash cows and do not particularly help with careers.

BTW in my experience maths students educated in countries such as Hong Kong, China, Malaysia are often worse than maths students educated in the UK with similar incoming grades. The reason is that a culture of studying many hours, practising every single past paper available, inflates A level grades and conceals lack of understanding of concepts. A different strategy in studying is required for undergraduate maths.

For point 5) of the OP, yes, indeed we should be concerned that relatively few students study maths, physics, chemistry, engineering in the UK. We are massively under-producing in some STEM fields. E.g. we produce roughly twice as many graduates in history every year as we do in maths, but the latter are needed for a large range of jobs, many of which have to be filled from abroad.

I sort of agree with disquisitiones. DS considered himself OK at maths at school, but not outstanding. He thought long and hard about whether to take FM, though then found himself enjoying it. There were plenty at his school (v selective) who were better, many overseas born. He is now at a good London University taking a course which is about 75%. (Though only offered a place a week before the deadline and after being rejected by three other Universities.) Caucasian British students are in a visible minority. This is fine by him as he was never a clubbing type, has lots of friends from all over, and is really enjoying his course.

What is curious is that he is doing far better, relatively, at University than he ever did at school. He never considered taking a maths degree, or thought himself capable, yet it's clear now that he could have done. Indeed he is deliberately selecting quite tough maths options from the maths department. He will end up taking more maths than some taking maths degrees, enjoying them more and often doing better. Some of his Asian friends, possibly with better A level results, are having to work very hard to keep up.

Factors may include:

1. Many of his Asian friends worked astonishingly hard at school. He is told, say that in Taiwan, that is is normal to have up to four hours tutoring each day after school and more at weekends. DS in contrast says he is working far harder now than he ever did at school. Who knows what he could have achieved if he had done more.

1. Many Asian school kids have very high aspirations. They apply to top Universities and often get places. This seems to work particuarly well with American applications (MIT Harvard etc) where things like strong music or being the first generation to go to University will count in your favour.

1. Confidence. It may sound weird, but Chinese kids at school seem to be expected to be good at maths, at least by their peers, which sort of becomes self-fulfilling. The same applies to boys. Non Chinese girls can face a double whammy.

1. Less comfortably, several of DCs Asian friends seem to have University and career choices largely determined by parents, and their preference is often from degrees which help access to established professions. Becoming a Doctor is the big one, but maths/City is also on the list. Going to a top University is important, and London is up there with Oxbridge for Asian students. An doctor friend living in Asia is astonished that we allowed DD not to apply to Oxbridge, and tells a convoluted tale of resits and reapplications before her DN got her Oxford law place. As far as she is concerned DD should be aiming for the top and working hard to ensure she gets there.

1. Living at home or, for overseas students, living in a multi-ethnic Captial.

1. Many London Univerties do not interview. They have to apply equal treatment, so without the direct face to face impressions gained from interview it is down to grades, PS and references.

1. Aptitude tests. Some will start studying for American aptitude tests (SATS) years in advance. DD would be having a much easier time with her medical school application had she spent more any time practicing UKCAT. But thinking back, the same applies to 11+. Essentially I suspect OPs question may reflect different cultural weights given to the value of "childhood". So some parents will not want to undertake the three or more year slog that is 11+ for super-selectives, and similarly may encourage their DC not to apply for London Universities because of a belief (which I would dispute) that they will have a better student experience elsewhere.

My guess is that a certain amount comes out in the wash. DS is enjoying a bit of headroom on a course some of his friends are finding hard. He has seen some burn outs from over-directed kids who are at a loss when away from home and needing to discover some ambition of their own. Employers too will be looking at a wider range of skills beyond University and grades. However there is clearly more to be done in terms of extending aspiration for a significant number of able school kids.

He will end up taking more maths than some taking maths degrees.

I would think this is not really true, especially since a lot of the courses which LSE calls maths many other institutions wouldn't. Even an LSE maths degree wouldn't be viewed as a mainstream maths degree which e.g. would prepare you for graduate study in mathematics (as opposed to mathematical finance or economics).

BTW I have also not seen an undergraduate UK maths course in which Caucasian students are in a minority: this is not true in even Imperial (which does take a high fraction of international students and takes lots of home students from certain ethnic minorities).

Disquis, I don't necessarily disagree about the maths he is taking. Its all stats and mathematical methods. I have no idea whether "real" maths is harder or whether he would enjoy it as much. it is certainly a subject he never considered for University as he would not have thought himself good enough. The surprise is that he finds the University maths he is doing more interesting than school maths, and he is relatively better at it.

The point was that it is very possible to get through school without realising that you enjoy maths and perhaps have a talent for it. And perhaps the issue is with British caucasian. London Universities will have their fair share of Hungarian, French, Russian and other students who have a different cultural attitude to maths.

You will know better than me, but working very hard seems to get you a long way in maths at school. So there will be some level of correlation between cultures who expect children to work very hard at school and places in top maths departments.

It can work the other way as well. Kids who find it all very easy at GCSE don't always realise that they need to step up a gear for A level. (Oh dear...that sounds like me...)

Brilliant posts disquisitiones. Its fascinating who ends up doing maths at uni.

DD2 is doing maths at Uni (decent RG but not one requiring FM). She was never the strongest maths student but worked her socks off and continues to do so at Uni. She loves it and knows it's the right subject for her. Maths at Uni isn't just for A* students even if it feels like it on MN

"How on earth can you tell by looking at someone where they're from?"
I would have thought that you can tell instantly by looking at someone if they're from HK China Malaysia etc or am I missing something here?
She's a first year on a three year degree course not on a foundation course.
I know math students have a nerdy reputation but they do talk to each other and I know they do group projects etc and even socialise so it's pretty likely that when talking to each one of the first things they're likely to ask is what country they're from.
The replies have been interesting, most views seem in complete contrast to what was told to me. I wil let you all know. When I next see her I will ask again about the % of Asians on the course as someone with top grades in math I would have thought she was pretty au fait with the concept of percentages and also guesstimating!
Thanks for all the replies.

Maths at Uni isn't just for A students even if it feels like it on MN.*

I think this is indeed an enormous problem: an AAB student will get into very good RG universities for maths and has the potential to do very well if they are willing to work. (Only the top five or so universities actually insist on FM.) Yet there is a widespread perception, particularly at selective schools, that you shouldn't do maths at university if you ever had to work at A level and that you can't get into good universities without further maths. The default in our culture is still for students to go disproportionally into the humanities. (Few other countries have ministerial cabinets in which virtually nobody has science education beyond 16.)

Students who had to work at school maths actually have the advantage that they have learnt how to study maths, which is often a huge issue for those who got A*s without effort - nobody gets through university level maths without working and studying outside lectures. (That said, I think the vast majority of those getting into the very top universities for maths probably didn't have to work until they started studying for STEP.)