Advice re CEM exam for grammar school

[sleepwouldbenice]

Hi

the grammar schools in our area have announced they are changing to the above exams from next year - the reason given is that too many pupils were being tutored to pass and these exams do not require tutoring. Overall I feel this is a great idea

My DD is in year 4 and fairly bright in most subjects so I was considering putting her in for the exams

I really don't believe in tutoring and tutoring or "training" to pass the exams as I do think they will struggle with the expectations later on. On the other hand I don't want her chances scuppered just because she is not familiar with "exam technique" (eg staying calm, coming back to harder questions etc) and think she ought to have some practice just to have an idea of what to expect. I think I would also like an independent view on her chances of passing as the primary school stays quite neutral on this

Does anyone have any experience with this exam, if tutoring (either from parents or a paid tutor) would be any good if so for how long, are there past papers, any other hints and tips?

Just want to get the balance right to be honest - happy to do something for a few weeks or a year!

Thanks in advance

Evenly distributed or towards the top end too I suppose.

iris no-one suggested sour grapes did they? How odd.

There is no possible basis for a pupil in the top band not getting offered a place other than for technical reasons. The school's don't pick out of a hat. The most usual technical factor is that the parent failed to place the child appropriately on the LEA choices form.

I would agree Molio.

It was my understanding that places were allocated working down the list in score order. Equal scores at the end are allocated on distance.

There is a minimum qualifying score to be put on the waiting list.

At my DCs' school that's how it works recycling, with certain categories with qualifying scores going to the top of the list and then working down in score order with the crucial proviso that the parent has named the school in the correct position on the LEA form, so that the selective school is the first one for which the child is eligible. Once the applicants with qualifying scores in the priority categories have gone to the top of the list (and there aren't usually a huge number of them) then it's working down the list in strict order - except that those applicants whose parent has put down another school for which the child is eligible first, won't get a place at the school in question. iris's scenario isn't possible without a parental boo boo.

PettsWood, I live in the same area as you (I wonder if our kids are at the same primary school) and I am panicking about the whole grammar thing. My son is only in year 4 but I've heard people start tutoring now! I went to grammar (super-selective - still not completely sure what that means!) and feel a bit meh about my education yet I'd still like my son to go to a grammar.

None of this is remotely relevant to the thread - sorry!

iris do you mean that three yes's refers to a pass on each of three test papers? At our school there used to be three test papers and the top category had passed all three papers the next category had only passed two but came close in the third so were 'eligible'. Thus all top category parents knew they were guaranteed a place (assuming the LEA form was in order) and the second category only knew they might have a place. The third category (one or no papers passed) knew they would not get a place.

But the school itself and the LEA knew as soon as the test was marked and the choices form checked which DC would get places.

How does your system work? I'm not sure I understand the three yes's.

Kathy I have PM'd you, hope that is ok. A superselective is one that selects on score, like Newstead or St Olaves. Some grammars just require a pass (like Bexley) and then oversubscription criteria kicks in like distance. Having gone through the process in three areas and reading here about other areas and how they operate it sometimes feels like you need a PhD in grammar school entrance.

iris do you mean swapped over? .

I understand vaguely how things work in your area and I'm very glad that my DC could only enter for a single super selective and nothing else. At least in this area the process is simple: the single co-ed grammar or a local comp, assuming independent isn't an option.

That said, all the schools and the LEA even in your area will already have the data.

It's so confusing. You'd almost think they do it on purpose!

My main concern is DS is a sensitive sort and it's a real dilemma what's going to work and what's not.

If we don't put him in for exam at all (when most of his friends will sit it) the he will feel like we don't believe in him or think he's good enough.

If we put him in with no preparation are we just setting him up to fail?

If we tutor are we putting too much pressure on him.

In the end we chose tutor with a 'give it a go' kind of attitude.

Who knows what the right response is.

Lots of DS's class are going to Explore Learning sessions.

I have no idea if these are any good or not but there's a good chunk of them all having the exact same preparation.

When I did 11+ 30 years ago we did practice sessions at school. Just the top maths set I think. DS's school aren't allowed to help at all which seems madness to me.

recycling when I did the 11+ the first I knew of it was having the paper put on the desk in front of me. My class seemed to enjoy it (we missed lessons!) and absolutely not a single child burst into tears.

I think tutoring could easily be perceived in a child's mind as upping the stakes but a give it a go frame of mind is good. One child at my DCSs' primary school was told that if the child didn't pass the 11+ they would have to sell their house to pay for school fees - madness to tell a child that, even if it's the plan.

Recycling - We tried Explore Learning 11+ course for a short time but found it too chaotic and not focusing on an indvidual's weaknesses. Of DD's friends who solely relied on Explore Learning none passed.

Molio that was my experience too.

DS would not cope at Explore learning. He struggles to stay focused at the best of times and really benefits from one to one time with his tutor.

This has been my angle to him - that regardless of whether he even enters the 11+ I think it's been worth it to see how hard he works when given the attention.

It's a confidence issue with DS I think. Because he's 'bouncy' he has it on his head that he's not academic material like the quieter ones.

The competitive all boys grammar (top 10 in the country) in our area is unlikely to suit him so I'm hoping he'll get a place at the mixed grammar which relies less on its reputation iyswim.

Pettswood that's interesting. Do they still think it was worthwhile?

So many of DS's friends who are doing the 11+ sessions are unlikely to pass anyway I would say. It sounds mean but they are in the lower 50% for maths and literacy and have been all the way through primary.

Hi recycling I know some DCs enjoyed their Sessions at Explore Learning and the parents like their six weekly parent meetings and felt it gave them a better handle on where their children were struggling at school. I think it is a very personal thing and why tutoring comes in all shapes and sizes. When I asked for success rates they said it was their policy not to release that as unlike some tutors who pre-assess and only pick those who they think will pass anyway - they will let anyone have a go. It was however for us also really expensive. It was about £150 pm - can't remember the exact amount but DD found it gimmicky and noisy and disruptive. The boys however seemed from my limited experience to find it more helpful and enjoyable.

I know what you mean about pre selection.

There is a tutor in our area who preselects in year 3 on 'attitude and aptitude' and you have to sign up for 2 years. She boasts of a 100% pass rate and last year one of her tutees received the highest mark.

She terrifies me and I gave her a wide berth.

recycling tell your DS that he can continue to be as 'bouncy' as he likes and it has nothing whatsoever to do with ability! My DC don't in any way fit the stereotype of quiet, biddable grammar school types and nor do a great many of their friends.

I've never heard of Explore Learning. What is it and who is it aimed at? £150pm sounds expensive to me.

Of course if tutors pre-select then they'll have sky high pass rates - that proves nothing in itself.

Explore Learning is a company which provides extra tuition.

There is a centre in our local supermarket!

From what I can work out there are still fairly large groups with most of it being computer base learning. You have to sign up for 2 sessions a week - 1 maths or literacy and 1 specifically aimed at 11+. Hence the £150 a month fee.

We decided that DS would get more benefit from 1 x 45 minute one to one session with a tutor which is £20 a week.

I find it so wrong that tutoring to tests is a given. I went to grammar school, I didn't have tuition (and actually, once we were at school it was fairly obvious which girls had been tutored) and there is no way my parents could have afforded it.

We can probably find the money if we decide to go that way, but there are so many families who couldn't. It's very, very wrong and completely contrary to the message grammar school supporters put out that it evens the playing field and gives kids from poorer backgrounds a chance. It quite obviously doesn't.

You're absolutely right KathyBeale. Especially when you see how complicated the system is for applying.

The opt in system certainly puts a lot of parents off.

I completely agree with you but my fear is what happens if I object out of principle.

We live in a grammar county. It would be unfair if DS doesn't get in because we didn't give him help enough to make a point.

Although I'm sure he'd be fine wherever he ends up, it would be equally unfair if he didn't get the chance.

I fully admit I'm acting out of fear not conviction.

Molio when DD2 sat the 11+ she did it for two schools, which at the time had two different systems. Her first choice school, which she ended up going to, did the 3 bands, numbers in each band provided thing, so we could see that as she was in category A and there were far fewer category A kids than places, she was in IF we put it top on the CAF. Her second choice school though just said yes or no to the question 'selective ability'? With no indication of how many kids had got a yes. In addition despite not having any intention of applying to two other grammar schools in the same LEA as her second choice, the results from the 11+ At the second choice school were shared with those 2 schools and the letter regarding that exam gave a yes or no answer to each school. So, she ended up with an easily understandable category A and 3 yeses which were not easily understandable at all - because of the no idea about numbers thing. The system has changed now though which is good I think, although it's possible that nobody gets total numbers anymore which if this is the case is less helpful.