Advice re CEM exam for grammar school

[sleepwouldbenice]

Hi

the grammar schools in our area have announced they are changing to the above exams from next year - the reason given is that too many pupils were being tutored to pass and these exams do not require tutoring. Overall I feel this is a great idea

My DD is in year 4 and fairly bright in most subjects so I was considering putting her in for the exams

I really don't believe in tutoring and tutoring or "training" to pass the exams as I do think they will struggle with the expectations later on. On the other hand I don't want her chances scuppered just because she is not familiar with "exam technique" (eg staying calm, coming back to harder questions etc) and think she ought to have some practice just to have an idea of what to expect. I think I would also like an independent view on her chances of passing as the primary school stays quite neutral on this

Does anyone have any experience with this exam, if tutoring (either from parents or a paid tutor) would be any good if so for how long, are there past papers, any other hints and tips?

Just want to get the balance right to be honest - happy to do something for a few weeks or a year!

Thanks in advance

All schools have their own set of data as soon as the results of the 11+ are in Washediris and can share the stats if they wish. The fact that the LEAs don't allocate until March is irrelevant.

Just to add my input - my area has schools that do both types of tests. The CEM was much more stressful - various anecdotes from my (state) children and my Colleague (DC at local prep) was that lots of people struggled with the format and timings. Interestingly when one of the local grammars tried to change from GL to CEM it was challenged by a local prep who said there was insufficient notice. My perception is that CEM is a better test of overall ability - certainly there is much more literacy / vocabulary / comprehension required than the GL format (which is NVR, maths and VR - which is actually codes and spotting hidden words etc) which imo is easier to prep for. In my area, prep schools have tended to do better not because they're working at a level above the state schools but because they don't have to follow the national curriculum and spend large parts of Year 5 specifically prepping for the exams. Now (imo) the test is testing ability based on the curriculum the playing field will be levelled somewhat.

The timing is an issue because it does go against the natural desire to complete all the questions (there are definitely more questions than the fastest most able student would be able to answer) and to not be able to go back and forth. Once children are used to that, it will be better.

Someone up thread says can I ask how you can compare the relative stress of the two types of test?

I appreciate it wasn't addressed to me but DD sat three types of test this September. She passed all three very well but to compare:
CEM seemed to favour DDs strengths in vocab.
GL was very very time pressured for maths but the questions were otherwise easy so accuracy worked or speed with a bit less accuracy still worked but speed and middling didn't.
Also a factor was the welcoming environment (or lack of!) and organisation. One test started 45 mins late and was held at a boys school and all the girls were crossing their legs as the queues for the one lot of toilets was horrendous. The other test was held on a day of torrential rain but the school has loads of volunteers with large umbrellas and a caring attitude.

The final factor was pass rate. Of course not all sitting will be having that test as their first choice. Of the three tests there are typically 1,000 girls sitting for 160 places in the superselective, 5,500 sitting for about 800 places in Bexley and in Kent the numbers are enormous but equate to about half who sit being deemed selective. That doesn't equate to stress (but for some parents it can) but does explain why some in our area often only pass Kent but not the other two as they are by the very nature of the odds more competitive.

You could pass brilliantly,but not get a place.

True. Grammar entrance is different in different areas. In Bexley if you 'pass' but are not close enough you don't get a place unless you score in top 180 (out of 5,500). In Kent if you are out of county then the criteria for the superselectives are higher and for the ones just requiring a pass you either just don't qualify as you live in the wrong parish or you have to be within a distance cut-off. For the superselectives I hear this 'but DC passed' when in fact for a superselective there is no such thing as a pass only a 'qualifying score' that moves up and down depending on number of applicants and how well they call did in comparison to each other. I hear of children who sit tests and only after the event do they find out they can't qualify for a place due to distance or other reason.

'Pass' is semantic. I mean getting a 'qualifying score' or 'passing' and in the top tranche and therefore highly likely to get a place. That's known as soon as the tests are marked both by all the individual schools and by the LEA and can be discovered by anyone interested enough to ask.

PettsWood I can see that you're in a good position to compare if your DD sat different tests in the same year but I can't work out which test she herself found the most stressful (did CEM begin late or was it at the umbrella school?).

As I say, I find it interesting that the numbers of private school entrants to individual grammars has varied in recent years, pre CEM - it's not a steady upward trend. The more interesting thing is the effect of 11+ tutoring on state school kids for which the figure is less visible. But Durham has been formulating and researching for many years on the basis that tutoring for the old tests does give an unfair advantage and the tests have been increasingly adopted by grammar schools with a big push coming from the GSHA, which has people who are well able to judge and have a strong agenda to negate the effect of tutoring to get back to a far more even playing field. Of course tutors are going to say they're still needed - they don't want to be out of a job!

I home tutored for CEM, and all went well. I know other children who just did a few practice tests, and got in too. But loads tutored for a year or two.
Home tutoring is certainly do-able.

By the way - there are no secondary moderns anymore.

My DS sat both types. Definitely found CEM more stressful.

PettsWood I can see that you're in a good position to compare if your DD sat different tests in the same year but I can't work out which test she herself found the most stressful (did CEM begin late or was it at the umbrella school?).*

I purposefully didn't make it clear As my point was it depends on the day and how well organised it is. The CEM test (Bexley) was much more smooth than the GL test (Kent). But that could change year on year.

namechanged which test came first in time? And was the CEM for his preferred school? Was it for the more selective school? Or neither? I'm only asking because what you and Washediris say is at odds with the reports I've heard and there are so many factors which make a difference to a DC's experience beyond the content or format of the test itself.

I doubt organization will vary wildly within schools PettsWood, just between them.

Three selective grammar schools here. Girls (local), boys (local) and mixed (slightly further). DS sat boys (GL) and mixed (CEM). Preferred school was the boys, sat that exam first, then sat exam for mixed grammar 2 days later.

Zazedonia

They may not be called that but that's essentially what they are.

There's a massive difference between super-selectives which might take less than the top 5% of any area, and a grammar school area where the top 20% are taken.

Here the 'secondary moderns' don't offer A levels and if you want to do A levels you have to transfer to the grammar.

I disagree about there still effectively being secondary moderns. Secondary moderns received far less funding per child and taught different subjects, focusing on the practical, non-academic. Comprehensives in grammar areas are likely to be better funded than the grammars (as more pupil premiums paid) and will do most of the same, academic subjects and sit the same exams.

Do you know how places are awarded in your area Washediris?

Not knowing really sucks. In our three areas that someone where I live can sit the 11+ unless you are going for a superselective AND are borderline you pretty much know your chances for Kent, Bexley or Bromley - although the boys this year in Bromley (for St Olaves) are not in the know as it is the first year of a two stage system. I think that was meant to be the idea of knowing results before 31st Oct, but if you have a second stage that is after then that doesn't help. What is the challenge causing your lack of knowing washidris? Here I know that DD would get superselective grammar choice 1 based on the last ten years scores and would get grammar choice 2 based on distance for last ten years - even allowing for fact it gets smaller every year. Sympathies if your system is less than transparent.

You seem very invested in private school kids having an advantage iris!

The school websites will of course state how places are allocated and detail the over subscription criteria but they don't go into detail about how many kids are sent on the list to the LEA. However, it doesn't take a brain of Britain to work out that the LEA will have more names on the list than the PAN, because of those not taking up their place for whatever reason. So that data is available already and it would be fairly easy to find out what percentage of that list are from private schools. It's highly improbable that the percentage from private schools on the list will be dramatically different once the dust has settled and people have decided whether or not to take up their place, unless of course all the private school kids are clustered towards the bottom end around the PAN, rather than being evenly distributed. That's the group of kids I was talking about.

No-one in the top tranche will not be awarded a place unless they've not put the school down in the proper place of priority on the LEA form. That's a legal thing and not some random pique on the part of the LEA or school. That's entirely in the gift of the parent.